I've permanently solved The Wanderer's Minuet problem...

[Reynhart]

1. They could restrict us to stay in some small area (like BLM)
2. They could make WM disappear when I start moving, so I need to reapply it again (probably with casting time)

If you know you have to move, you can just cancel WM so you will DPS as usual. And they even allow you to put it on back instantly, since 3.01. If you don't know you have to move and blame SE for how you don't manage WM properly, it's on you.

2. When I have a straighter shot proc, I can't use it immediately. I have to spend one more gcd with some skill (mostly with other heavy shot, getting other proc and losing that proc in that case)

There's almost one second left on you GCD when you finish casting Heavy Shot, how do you miss the proc ?

3. Why when I use repelling shot as oGCD skill, my next GCD skill can be interrupted when I wasn't moving after that?

Because Repelling Shot makes you...move, maybe ?

4. Why after I turn off WM I still have casting time on my next GCD skill?

Because you probably start your next GCD before the icon disappear. Exatcly the same activation/deactivation delay as every other oGCD skill.

[Duelle]

That's really funny, because I'm pretty sure one year-ish ago, we had dozens of thread were BRDs complained about their lack of DPS.
And of course, mobility was brought up to explain why their DPS was so low, and most of BRDs replied by "But sometimes, we don't need this mobility, yet we're still penalized by it".

Maybe one day, you realize that Wanderer's Minuet was created to answer your complains back in the day. Be careful what you wish for, it might be granted eventually.

As I've said, option B of my post is available if you want to reduce BRD mobility and increase DPS. There was a MUCH better way to implement the sort of gameplay the devs wanted to push on BRD. Again, tossing in a stance at lv52 was not the way to go about it.

If you know you have to move, you can just cancel WM so you will DPS as usual. And they even allow you to put it on back instantly, since 3.01. If you don't know you have to move and blame SE for how you don't manage WM properly, it's on you.

And at that point it becomes having an extra button to push for its own sake, which is bad design.

[vp_cmc]

If you know you have to move...

So.. Why they decided to add casting times to WM and not taking any other possible approach? Causing those 1-4 issues?
And I usually don't know that I have to move, because it seems that SE started to love random-target aoe's in 3.x, so you never know. (a3s start for example. sometimes I don't have to move at all, sometimes I have to make a quarter of circle around a boss then move back before 2-nd attack).

There's almost one second left on you GCD...

Try this yourself.. Cast heavy shot under WM, catch a proc and press straight shot. Proc will not be used and cast will be not instant...

Because Repelling Shot...

I start next gcd cast after I moved. You can't start next heavy shot while still moving in repelling shot because of animation lock

Because you probably start your next GCD before the icon disappear...

Maybe this. So what then? Turn it off, then wait? Doesn't look like smooth gameplay to me.

[Reynhart]

Option B: Change BRD gameplay at the base, reducing mobility by giving cast times to some abilities, retune or redesign the procs to work with the new gameplay

Since the casting times is what most people complains about, I don't see how it's a solution. Besides, BRD have so few GCD in its "rotation", what would be some abilities ?

And at that point it becomes having an extra button to push for its own sake, which is bad design.

It's not bad design, it's "not holding your hand".
So basically, you'd like a buff to BRD that improves your DPS when you stand still without any input from you, and that automatically cancels itself if you move ?

I also like my PLD to turn automatically to block an attack so that I don't have to care about my facing...

So.. Why they decided to add casting times to WM and not taking any other possible approach?

Because I'm pretty sure that whatever downside they put, people would still complain about it. And that pretty much everything comes with a downside, it's what makes your decisions matter.

And I usually don't know that I have to move, because it seems that SE started to love random-target aoe's in 3.x, so you never know. (a3s start for example. sometimes I don't have to move at all, sometimes I have to make a quarter of circle around a boss then move back before 2-nd attack).

Random target AoE had always been a thing. But the moment where thos AoE comes is always the same.

I start next gcd cast after I moved. You can't start next heavy shot while still moving in repelling shot because of animation lock

You can start a GCD before the very end of the oGCD animation (That's why I never finish the cool animation of Reprisal with my DRK).

Maybe this. So what then? Turn it off, then wait? Doesn't look like smooth gameplay to me.

It's not that big of a deal. It will only make one more GCD under the effect of Minuet, which shouldn't be a problem unless you cancel just before an AoE appear on you (See my 1st point for that)

[Vinestra]

It's not casting. It's taking aim/charge time. All the BRD weaponskills didn't suddenly become spells. They just take slightly longer to fire because you're taking careful aim.

Sadly I think much of the problem could be fixed if they simply renamed the "waiting bar" for BRDs to be "Aim bar" or "Charge bar".

True except for if thats what you consider aiming (either fooling around with your arrow and quiver, or pointing your gun in the air) well. STUPID ANIMATIONS ARE STUPID ;n;

[Duelle]

Since the casting times is what most people complains about, I don't see how it's a solution. Besides, BRD have so few GCD in its "rotation", what would be some abilities?

Part of the problem is that disparity in gameplay is not just seen by the guys who've been playing BRD since ARR's launch, but by EVERYONE who picks up the job, past and present. This is because the ARR gameplay is left intact for 51 levels. So the camp of discontents is composed of not only BRD mains that don't like the change, but new people who are just leveling the job. Making the change at the base level means that while the old guard may have a problem with it, people just picking up the job wouldn't see the difference since what they'd have is one cohesive combat model instead of BRD as it plays 1-51 and then BRD post-Wanderer's Minuet.

As for my own recommendations, Heavy Shot, Straight Shot and possibly Windbite. Have Heavier Shot procs make the next Straight Shot instant cast. Bloodletter would be tricky, though what may work would be turning River of Blood procs into a stacking buff as others have suggested when discussing why WM doesn't gel with BRD's innate gameplay (this way procs don't feel wasted). Obviously, this would also go hand-in-hand with increasing bow weapon damage across the board to make up for Wanderer's Minuet not being what it currently is. Or if you're determined to have it affect gameplay somehow, turn it into a 15-second buff that allows your cast bar to fill while moving.

Keep in mind that some of us have a problem not with the idea behind the change, but with how it was implemented. I used to have a marksmanship hunter in WoW, so I've played ranged physical classes with cast times (MM hunters had the benefit of being able to cast while moving if not specced into Focusing Shot) and can go either way. What I can't stand is the hamfisted approach the devs chose.

[Reynhart]

Making the change at the base level means that while the old guard may have a problem with it, people just picking up the job wouldn't see the difference since what they'd have is one cohesive combat model instead of BRD as it plays 1-51 and then BRD post-Wanderer's Minuet.

Making the change at the base level means you'll be doing the same thing over and over. That's the previous big issue with PLD, since, after reaching level 26, you're on for hours and hours of Rage Of Halone spam, with nothing really new before level 54.
And pretty much all jobs were changed after 50. DRG with Blood Of The Dragon, BLM with Enochian, SMN with Aethertrail, etc...
Keeping the same dynamic over and over would have made most jobs boring.

As for my own recommendations, Heavy Shot, Straight Shot and possibly Windbite. Have Heavier Shot procs make the next Straight Shot instant cast.

So, in fact, almost all of your single target weapon skills. How is that different from now ? And instant cast is far less potent than critical hit, since you'd have to wait the GCD anyway.

Bloodletter would be tricky, though what may work would be turning River of Blood procs into a stacking buff as others have suggested when discussing why WM doesn't gel with BRD's innate gameplay (this way procs don't feel wasted).

It's exatcly what BLM would like for Firestarter proc.

Add your instant straight shot proc, and you'd be closer to BLM gameplay that you are now. Isn't it what BRDs don't want ?

[Duelle]

Making the change at the base level means you'll be doing the same thing over and over. That's the previous big issue with PLD, since, after reaching level 26, you're on for hours and hours of Rage Of Halone spam, with nothing really new before level 54.

This was never a problem in most cases. PLD being straightforward is not a bad thing.

And pretty much all jobs were changed after 50. DRG with Blood Of The Dragon, BLM with Enochian, SMN with Aethertrail

Blood of the Dragon and Aethertrail are additions to the existing gameplay for those jobs (in fact, SMN's additions are good examples of how you make a job grow with an increased level cap). Enochian is arguable but that's because while it is an addition, its implementation is a bit shaky (which is why some BLMs are asking for QoL changes connected to Enochian).

PLD enjoyed similar growth since we received a DPS combo finisher and a DoT. Our gameplay wasn't turned on its head with the addition of Goring Blade and Royal Authority (or the utility skills we received). We were just given additional tools to do what we already did.

Add your instant straight shot proc, and you'd be closer to BLM gameplay that you are now. Isn't it what BRDs don't want ?

Bloodletter, Venomous Bite (and possibly Windbite), and Misery's End would still be instant cast. Your AoE stuff would still be instant cast as well. Assuming you didn't give Windbite a cast time, your casted shots would be Heavy Shot, Straight Shot, Empyreal Arrow and Sidewinder. I'm not a fan of Iron Jaws (and it wouldn't be needed if both Venomous Bite and Windbite remained instant cast) and would want it changed to something else (probably a 20 second debuff that reduces resistance to piercing with a 45 second cooldown).

----------------------------

In a perfect world, the whole "less mobility for damage" mentality wouldn't exist and instead BRD's gameplay would have received an addition akin to what the other DPS got instead of having their entire gameplay changed. If only to help make BRD and MCH stand apart form each other instead of sharing elements here and there.

[Reynhart]

This was never a problem in most cases. PLD being straightforward is not a bad thing.

Base on the numerous "PLD is boring" threads, that apparentaly was a bad thing

Blood of the Dragon and Aethertrail are additions to the existing gameplay for those jobs (in fact, SMN's additions are good examples of how you make a job grow with an increased level cap). Enochian is arguable but that's because while it is an addition, its implementation is a bit shaky (which is why some BLMs are asking for QoL changes connected to Enochian).

Wanderer's Minuet is an "addition", too. You can still play without it, and sacrificing some of your DPS. Exactly like a BLM who don't know how to manage Enochian or a DRG with BotD.
In each of this thread, I have the feeling that BRDs feel the need to keep WM 24/7. It's not the case.

PLD enjoyed similar growth since we received a DPS combo finisher and a DoT. Our gameplay wasn't turned on its head with the addition of Goring Blade and Royal Authority (or the utility skills we received). We were just given additional tools to do what we already did.

Let's be honest...PLD is still somehow "boring" to play (Even if I like the job)

Bloodletter, Venomous Bite (and possibly Windbite), and Misery's End would still be instant cast.

I'll give you that. Bloodletter and Misery's End should not be affected by minuet, and should not be considered Weapon Skills, but Abilities.

In a perfect world, the whole "less mobility for damage" mentality wouldn't exist and instead BRD's gameplay would have received an addition akin to what the other DPS got instead of having their entire gameplay changed.

It exists because "less damage for mobility" existed in the first place. In fact, were it for me, BRD wouldn't have that mobility in the first place, since it takes time to aim properly. But they'd be designed for all songs to reduce damage and that, in party situation, you'd always want an active song. Or create more powerful songs, but making any action interrupt the song.

[RiceisNice]

I thought bards did less damage because of support...

#neverconsistent.


Pld would be turned upside their heads if their new combos dps combo required parrying, but you have a shield which competes with parrying. It's an addition that does not give consideration to pld's gameplsy, just as much as WM not considering bard's oGCDs and heavy shot animations.