Fending vs. Slaying accessories at this point in the game

[Phoenicia]

Have you seen a White Mage AOE parse?

I would worry about that if Holy wasn't nerfed to poop.

Hate to break it to you, but holy spam is no longer a very potent combo and WHM (and BLM) will always be behind SMN now.

Non-PLD tanks can pull REALLY close to the DPS (and lol ahead of NIN) in AoE if they know how to maximize their AoE. I used to switch between VIT for big trash pulls and STR for bosses. But I realized the difference is minor and all that I need to do as a tank is utilize CDs.

Also you spamming holy will stun the adds anyways so it doesn't matter if I wore VIT, STR or my swimsuit bikini for the whole 6s that the mobs are stunned.

Oh, the thing about Holy though is: Spamming it will drastically reduce the duration of the "stun-lock" since it'll clip after the half duration thing. And spacing out Holy to max out stun duration is a DPS loss. Make your choice.

[UlricCraft]

... Hate to break it to you, but holy spam is no longer a very potent

Non-PLD tanks can pull REALLY close to the DPS in AoE if they know how to maximize their AoE.

I love to inform you that you're wrong.
Sure a white mage got some damage reduced from Holy, but they compensate with Aero III in high-health mob fights, and Assize for more burst.
3+ mobs, White Mage is still king of DPS.

As for the clippling, only the second cast of Holy needs to be delayed by 1second. If it clips you lose 1 second. Drastic. :/

To keep it on-point:
Thank you for using cooldowns.
Thank you for using fending on trash.
Healers see health bars in %, not numbers. The longer it stays 100% the better, when you dip to 1hp, a Benediction is more valuable.

Everything regarding this topic has already been discussed in previous pages so I'm out.

[Tila]

I love to inform you that you're wrong.
Sure a white mage got some damage reduced from Holy, but they compensate with Aero III in high-health mob fights, and Assize for more burst.
3+ mobs, White Mage is still king of DPS.

As for the clippling, only the second cast of Holy needs to be delayed by 1second. If it clips you lose 1 second. Drastic. :/

To keep it on-point:
Thank you for using cooldowns.
Thank you for using fending on trash.
Healers see health bars in %, not numbers. The longer it stays 100% the better, when you dip to 1hp, a Benediction is more valuable.

Everything regarding this topic has already been discussed in previous pages so I'm out.

You're counting out that Warrior is auto attacking during all this, that they have dps buffs they can use, that they have vengence adding in more damage, that holy has a long cast time, and above all else, that at most you're losing one or two holys if the WAR is going heavy slaying.

You're talking as though that a slaying warrior means no WHM DPS. No, it just means a small handful of fewer casts while the warrior continues DPSing.

[Zfz]

I would worry about that if Holy wasn't nerfed to poop.

Hate to break it to you, but holy spam is no longer a very potent combo and WHM (and BLM) will always be behind SMN now.

Just want to say, Holy is still the primary AoE tool for the WHM and it is still very potent, add the new AOE tools WHM got, you'll see that WHM AOE dps is still very strong compared to anything any tank can ever wish to do in their wet dreams.

Yes WHM is behind the real DPS but that's how it should be anyway. But it is still miles ahead any tank.

[Phoenicia]

Just want to say, Holy is still the primary AoE tool for the WHM and it is still very potent, add the new AOE tools WHM got, you'll see that WHM AOE dps is still very strong compared to anything any tank can ever wish to do in their wet dreams.

Yes WHM is behind the real DPS but that's how it should be anyway. But it is still miles ahead any tank.

If you really think a WHM is far ahead of any tank (that's not a PLD) then you haven't played with good tanks that aren't PLDs. Don't forget Holy loses a % per target hit. So more the more targets you do less per target while the tanks do the same. Tanks scale better for every target added into the mob while WHM loses potency.

WAR AoE is no joke. Specially if WAR is good enough to combo Maim (stopping at Maim) for its buff before using its AoE. A Maim/berserked WAR slipping into deliverance after grabbing initial aggro popping Vengeance (50 potency each time they're hit) and spamming Overpower (120 each) 7 times then ending zerk with double Decimate (280 each) is gonna do so much damage it'll put some of the real DPS to shame until their Berserk wears off. 20 seconds is a long time (9 GCDs) and it is longer than anything a WHM can afford before they have to actually step out of Cleric Stance to heal. Maim and Berserk are massive damage multipliers. Deliverance + Maim + Berserk = 1.05 x 1.20 x 1.50 = 1.89 (89% damage increase). WAR's AoE potency per target is not affected by the number of enemies hit.

DRK AoE is no joke either, DA DP is 50% stronger than holy and is oGCD, they have a DoT that ticks at 70 potency for a total of 525! and their AD is 120 potency. Everything is multiplied by 1.15. DRK AoE potency per target is not affected by the number of enemies hit.

Oh, here's a funny fact: SCH has way higher AoE DPS than WHM thanks to Bane, Miasma II and Shadow Flare. WHM has higher single target DPS though.

Do not underestimate tanks AoE.

[dragoelete]

snip

yes but subtract that by the damage the war would be doing in defiance because that's how much damage they would have been doing anyway. and then compare that to the healer damage which is how much dps would have actually been happening if you would have stayed in defiance...

[Phoenicia]

yes but subtract that by the damage the war would be doing in defiance because that's how much damage they would have been doing anyway. and then compare that to the healer damage which is how much dps would have actually been happening if you would have stayed in defiance...

If you read carefully, I said "slip into deliverance".

But since you mention defiance, here's an example of what a good WAR will do:

Have 5 stacks ready, go into mob, use a maim combo for the buff, use unchained > Overpower > Infuiriate+Berserk > Overpower x2 > Overpower > Internal Release > Overpower > Vengeance > Overpower x5 > Steel Cyclone.

You can ignore the defiance penalty for 10 GCDs (9 in unchained and 1 Steel Cyclone). You multipliers will still be maim (1.2) + zerk (1.5) = 1.8 (80% bonus).

[Zfz]

WAR slipping into deliverance

longer than anything a WHM can afford before they have to actually step out of Cleric Stance to heal.

Few quesetions/points:

(1) Isn't Deliverance exactly the reason why the WHM would have to go back to healing earlier? I've not really used my WAR at all but I remember that the Wrath stacks could be used for damage reduction. Tanking an AOE pack in Deliverance, you've got less HP, you're healed for less on top of the fact that you already have no innate damage reduction, and then you aren't using Wrath for Inner Beast. The Dark Knight for example could have Grit (20%), Shadowskin (20%) and Shadow Wall (30%) giving about 55% damage reduction for the first 10 seconds, half of what you will be taking.

Besides, the point is about whether it's better for the WHM to dps or for the WAR to dps. You should be comparing maximum WAR dps in deliverance to the maximum WHM dps that can be achieved when the WAR is pure VIT and going full defensive in his skill usage. Comparing a WAR in dps mode to a WHM that has to heal a WAR in dps mode is nonsense. So the question becomes, how long can a WAR hold out in full defensive mode before a WHM has to heal the WAR?

(2) IIRC Berzerk is not +50% damage. It is +50% attack power. This was a long time ago but it was calculated to be worth +20% final damage. Unless the skill has changed?

(3) Holy+Aero3+Assize actually gives the WHM higher total AOE potency than the old uncapped Holy. Holy itself is nerfed but WHM AOE dps has improved in terms of potency. It only starts to be worse than 2.x Holy spam after the 7th or 8th target, for a fight lasting about 20 seconds.

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Unrelated, but on a PLD with Hallowed Ground (100% for 10s) > Sentinel+Rampart (52% for 10s) we're already at 20 seconds. Perhaps that's why I put more value on WHM AOE dps than WARs do.

[Phoenicia]

Few quesetions/points:

(1) Isn't Deliverance exactly the reason why the WHM would have to go back to healing earlier? I've not really used my WAR at all but I remember that the Wrath stacks could be used for damage reduction. Tanking an AOE pack in Deliverance, you've got less HP, you're healed for less on top of the fact that you already have no innate damage reduction, and then you aren't using Wrath for Inner Beast. The Dark Knight for example could have Grit (20%), Shadowskin (20%) and Shadow Wall (30%) giving about 55% damage reduction for the first 10 seconds, half of what you will be taking.

Besides, the point is about whether it's better for the WHM to dps or for the WAR to dps. You should be comparing maximum WAR dps in deliverance to the maximum WHM dps that can be achieved when the WAR is pure VIT and going full defensive in his skill usage. Comparing a WAR in dps mode to a WHM that has to heal a WAR in dps mode is nonsense. So the question becomes, how long can a WAR hold out in full defensive mode before a WHM has to heal the WAR?

(2) IIRC Berzerk is not +50% damage. It is +50% attack power. This was a long time ago but it was calculated to be worth +20% final damage. Unless the skill has changed?

(3) Holy+Aero3+Assize actually gives the WHM higher total AOE potency than the old uncapped Holy. Holy itself is nerfed but WHM AOE dps has improved in terms of potency. It only starts to be worse than 2.x Holy spam after the 7th or 8th target, for a fight lasting about 20 seconds.

----

Unrelated, but on a PLD with Hallowed Ground (100% for 10s) > Sentinel+Rampart (52% for 10s) we're already at 20 seconds. Perhaps that's why I put more value on WHM AOE dps than WARs do.

lol This is unwantingly turning into my shlong is bigger than yours. It is not like a WHM DPSing means the tank wouldn't and shouldn't DPS. It is definitely not either, or. And I like to have the best of both!

My original point was when a tank goes STR instead of VIT, they lose 2~3k HP which is less than 1 Cure/Physic worth of heal. And no mitigation is lost. All it results is literally 1 GCD of DPS turned into Cure/Physic.

However, I will reply to those points with counter points that are relevant:

(1) My "rotation" incorporated WAR's strongest Defensive. Then you also said it here, Defiance does not directly reduce damage. For Defiance to work, WAR has to receive the heals. That is the main reason WAR stance dances. Defiance is very dynamic in the way it mitigates damage since it has two elements, increased max HP which is only beneficial when you are already full or getting Stoneskin or % heals (which were removed from the game), and increased healing received which is only relevant if you are getting healed by spells! Abilities like Assize aren't affected by Defiance. WAR slipping into deliverance after establishing initial hate usually means they probably got hit and already lost the 25% bonus HP while both the tank and WHM are positioning for AoE.

There is almost no situation where a WAR will use IB in an AoE pack. It comes down to WAR using other defensives and self-recovery. In my examples they are vengeance and Blood Bath. Since WAR is doing massive AoE damage, the self healing is insane. Which brings up CD synergy which I'll bring up later.

Also in my second scenario, the WAR keeps defiance up and uses Unchained instead. But since the WHM is doing DPS and Assize doesn't get added healing from Defiance, WAR staying in Defiance serves no purpose other than overly ridiculous aggro generation. Oh and the access to a heal from Equilibrium letting the heal DPS 2 or 3 GCDs more.

(2) Berserk is 50% attack power increase. It translates roughly to ~50% damage increase according the damage formula found here. You can also test it yourself by using the same skill on a dummy and you'll see the ~50% increase. Also on average Equilibrium heals my WAR for 3.7k without zerk, and 5.2~5.5k with.

Berserk is the strongest burst CD in the game. I don't know where you saw it was calculated to be worse than cross classed Blood for Blood and Raging Strikes.

WAR toolkit synergy with itself is simply the best in the game. Anything a WAR does compliments everything else he does in ridiculous ways. For example Berserk adds amplifies everything you do and multiplies at a base level because it's a stat increase instead of just a damage bonus. Blood Bath heals of a % of the damage you do, benefits greatly from WAR's higher overall damage. Vengeance (while reduces damage received) has a counter effect, gets a bonus from zerk, and ends up healing you for non-negligible, albeit small, amount of HP adding to its defensive effectiveness. These combined elements will make a WAR last almost as long as a PLD throwing all of its CDs with HG before needing a heal.

(3) Healer mains have tested healer classes' DPS and proven that SCH has the highest AoE with Bane+Miasma II+Shadow Flare, then WHM comes second with Holy+Aero3+Assize and AST comes last since they only have Gravity which is a targeted Holy. Single target it's WHM > SCH > AST.

And so far my WAR, and DRK to an extent, have never been outDPS'd by a healer in any AoE encounter I've been in. But personal experience may only mean that I've never been group with a really good healer.

Your last point IS related to the topic.

Yes, PLD can give you so much breathing room to AoE as a WHM. But since it is a garbage class (j/k) and does literally 0 AoE DPS, the least it can do is give others more breathing space to do more damage! As a matter of fact, PLD is the BEST TANK when it comes to letting other classes do additional damage. Remember the cover trick in T13? Hallowed Ground gives BOTH healers at least 10 seconds of DPS freedom even in the toughest encounters. PLD gives me the feeling that I have more "control" over a fight than either of the other tanks. Specially when stun, silence and pacification work!

On another note, I appreciate WHMs that try to AoE. And if the WHM requests that I put fending on so he can maximize DPS, I will gladly do it. I am not underestimating WHM DPS, but I wouldn't overestimate it either. But I definitely would not underestimate tank DPS.

[Iagainsti]

(1) My "rotation" incorporated WAR's strongest Defensive. Then you also said it here, Defiance does not directly reduce damage. For Defiance to work, WAR has to receive the heals. That is the main reason WAR stance dances. Defiance is very dynamic in the way it mitigates damage since it has two elements, increased max HP which is only beneficial when you are already full or getting Stoneskin or % heals (which were removed from the game), and increased healing received which is only relevant if you are getting healed by spells! Abilities like Assize aren't affected by Defiance. WAR slipping into deliverance after establishing initial hate usually means they probably got hit and already lost the 25% bonus HP while both the tank and WHM are positioning for AoE.

Thank you for pointing this out to the herd^^^ so many ppl do not comprehend Defiance stance is all about heals received, not just being a War version of Shield Oath.