Fending vs. Slaying accessories at this point in the game

[Asierid]

I'm not a fan of Slaying tanks. Do you really need to push that extra 12 dps on your parser?

More than twelve. Try a couple hundred. 20% over time is a rather large increase.

Whenever I see a full slaying tank in 'meets the requirement' ilvl gear, I die inside.
I literally become a heal dispenser from TF2.
If I even try to Cleric Stance you die.

1: The dispenser in TF2 was mainly used for ammo/building, the heal was lolworthy and only useful in canceling out burns.

2: Good healers can still cleric stance for the same amount of time with a STR tank.

You pull a full room with a party of DRK, MNK, NIN, AST.
It takes ages, I run out of mana, I macro Cure/Benefic to fire off 12 times in a row one after the other because that's literally all I can do.

I do agree that speed running is pointless now due to the decent AoE classes not having decent AoE anymore. That has nothing to do with STR/VIT and more to do with gameplay/balancing changes. This sentence makes no sense in the overall context of the thread.

All healers will do more DPS than you if you just wore some Fending gear and gave us a couple extra casts of Holy/Aero3/Assize/Gravity/Bane/Shadowflare...

No they won't. No cleric healer is out DPSing a stance dancing/STR WAR that knows what's up, hate to break it to you. You won't even come close.

[Allyrion]

2: Good healers can still cleric stance for the same amount of time with a STR tank.

That probably has more to do with how well the Tank is using their CDs than how good the healer is.

But also, the example had an AST which is pretty weak regardless for that sort of thing.

No they won't. No cleric healer is out DPSing a stance dancing/STR WAR that knows what's up, hate to break it to you. You won't even come close.

To be fair, he's talking about being able to use cleric stance vs not using it at all.
That means even if a tank does more dps, that's not a fair comparison.
You are going to do dps as a tank even in all VIT regardless, so the base DPS doesn't count.

You would compare the dps gained from the str gear vs all the dps of the healer.
So basically, the healer would only need to beat that couple hundred you cited earlier for an overall party dps gain.

That's, of course, in the given scenario where the healer has to focus the tank and not dps at all.
That's not necessarily always the case depending on the healer, tank (competency wise) and gear.

[UlricCraft]

No they won't. No cleric healer is out DPSing a stance dancing/STR WAR that knows what's up, hate to break it to you. You won't even come close.

Have you seen a White Mage AOE parse?

Trash pull prior to A3 all the way up to the Tail Screw add.
Watch a 100% CS WHM out-dps your BLM. Forget about tanks.

I'm not saying at the very end of the dungeon a healer would be #3 on the list, but for group pulls where you can survive 2 hits by yourself, a stun-locked mob will take as much damage as if there were 3 dps as opposed to 2 & a tank.

[Dement]

Have you seen a White Mage AOE parse?



Trash pull prior to A3 all the way up to the Tail Screw add.
Watch a 100% CS WHM out-dps your BLM. Forget about tanks.

I'm not saying at the very end of the dungeon a healer would be #3 on the list, but for group pulls where you can survive 2 hits by yourself, a stun-locked mob will take as much damage as if there were 3 dps as opposed to 2 & a tank.

There's a chasm between trash pulls and bosses. If a tank isn't using melded accessories then they need to have 2 accessory sets, one mostly slaying and one mostly fending. A WHM will do way more damage than a slaying tank on large trash pulls through Holy spam, as such, a good tank would gear to allow the WHM more flexibility to cast. However, that same WHM isn't going to be able to do the same amount of damage while only attacking a boss in addition to curing higher damage attacks, splash damage on DPS, and performing any mechanics necessary. The tank on the other hand will have as close to 100% uptime on the boss as any other member on the team. In this case, the tank needs enough HP to survive the bosses' largest attack and a random auto attack afterwards... anything else should be put into STR to maximize DPS on the boss which will surpass what a WHM would be able to do if they tank had more VIT to allow them 1 extra GCD in Cleric's stance periodically.

[Phoenicia]

Have you seen a White Mage AOE parse?

I would worry about that if Holy wasn't nerfed to poop.

Hate to break it to you, but holy spam is no longer a very potent combo and WHM (and BLM) will always be behind SMN now.

Non-PLD tanks can pull REALLY close to the DPS (and lol ahead of NIN) in AoE if they know how to maximize their AoE. I used to switch between VIT for big trash pulls and STR for bosses. But I realized the difference is minor and all that I need to do as a tank is utilize CDs.

Also you spamming holy will stun the adds anyways so it doesn't matter if I wore VIT, STR or my swimsuit bikini for the whole 6s that the mobs are stunned.

Oh, the thing about Holy though is: Spamming it will drastically reduce the duration of the "stun-lock" since it'll clip after the half duration thing. And spacing out Holy to max out stun duration is a DPS loss. Make your choice.

[UlricCraft]

... Hate to break it to you, but holy spam is no longer a very potent

Non-PLD tanks can pull REALLY close to the DPS in AoE if they know how to maximize their AoE.

I love to inform you that you're wrong.
Sure a white mage got some damage reduced from Holy, but they compensate with Aero III in high-health mob fights, and Assize for more burst.
3+ mobs, White Mage is still king of DPS.

As for the clippling, only the second cast of Holy needs to be delayed by 1second. If it clips you lose 1 second. Drastic. :/

To keep it on-point:
Thank you for using cooldowns.
Thank you for using fending on trash.
Healers see health bars in %, not numbers. The longer it stays 100% the better, when you dip to 1hp, a Benediction is more valuable.

Everything regarding this topic has already been discussed in previous pages so I'm out.

[Tila]

I love to inform you that you're wrong.
Sure a white mage got some damage reduced from Holy, but they compensate with Aero III in high-health mob fights, and Assize for more burst.
3+ mobs, White Mage is still king of DPS.

As for the clippling, only the second cast of Holy needs to be delayed by 1second. If it clips you lose 1 second. Drastic. :/

To keep it on-point:
Thank you for using cooldowns.
Thank you for using fending on trash.
Healers see health bars in %, not numbers. The longer it stays 100% the better, when you dip to 1hp, a Benediction is more valuable.

Everything regarding this topic has already been discussed in previous pages so I'm out.

You're counting out that Warrior is auto attacking during all this, that they have dps buffs they can use, that they have vengence adding in more damage, that holy has a long cast time, and above all else, that at most you're losing one or two holys if the WAR is going heavy slaying.

You're talking as though that a slaying warrior means no WHM DPS. No, it just means a small handful of fewer casts while the warrior continues DPSing.

[Zfz]

I would worry about that if Holy wasn't nerfed to poop.

Hate to break it to you, but holy spam is no longer a very potent combo and WHM (and BLM) will always be behind SMN now.

Just want to say, Holy is still the primary AoE tool for the WHM and it is still very potent, add the new AOE tools WHM got, you'll see that WHM AOE dps is still very strong compared to anything any tank can ever wish to do in their wet dreams.

Yes WHM is behind the real DPS but that's how it should be anyway. But it is still miles ahead any tank.

[Phoenicia]

Just want to say, Holy is still the primary AoE tool for the WHM and it is still very potent, add the new AOE tools WHM got, you'll see that WHM AOE dps is still very strong compared to anything any tank can ever wish to do in their wet dreams.

Yes WHM is behind the real DPS but that's how it should be anyway. But it is still miles ahead any tank.

If you really think a WHM is far ahead of any tank (that's not a PLD) then you haven't played with good tanks that aren't PLDs. Don't forget Holy loses a % per target hit. So more the more targets you do less per target while the tanks do the same. Tanks scale better for every target added into the mob while WHM loses potency.

WAR AoE is no joke. Specially if WAR is good enough to combo Maim (stopping at Maim) for its buff before using its AoE. A Maim/berserked WAR slipping into deliverance after grabbing initial aggro popping Vengeance (50 potency each time they're hit) and spamming Overpower (120 each) 7 times then ending zerk with double Decimate (280 each) is gonna do so much damage it'll put some of the real DPS to shame until their Berserk wears off. 20 seconds is a long time (9 GCDs) and it is longer than anything a WHM can afford before they have to actually step out of Cleric Stance to heal. Maim and Berserk are massive damage multipliers. Deliverance + Maim + Berserk = 1.05 x 1.20 x 1.50 = 1.89 (89% damage increase). WAR's AoE potency per target is not affected by the number of enemies hit.

DRK AoE is no joke either, DA DP is 50% stronger than holy and is oGCD, they have a DoT that ticks at 70 potency for a total of 525! and their AD is 120 potency. Everything is multiplied by 1.15. DRK AoE potency per target is not affected by the number of enemies hit.

Oh, here's a funny fact: SCH has way higher AoE DPS than WHM thanks to Bane, Miasma II and Shadow Flare. WHM has higher single target DPS though.

Do not underestimate tanks AoE.

[dragoelete]

snip

yes but subtract that by the damage the war would be doing in defiance because that's how much damage they would have been doing anyway. and then compare that to the healer damage which is how much dps would have actually been happening if you would have stayed in defiance...