AST Sect Theory

[Apeiron]

Uh... the HoTs from Diurnal are going to easily outpace the 5% healing boost from Noct. You know what's more potent than that "massive" Benefic II? Benefic II plus one single bloody HoT tick. Jesus Christ.

When the ticks from the HoT are barely, if even actually healing the auto-attacks from boss mechanics, they're not outpacing anything. I've stated it before, but to get the full potential out of the HoT you'd have to let them go all the way through, and in-between you're spamming your other healing spells to make up for any other damage. When a SCH can drop Succor for better shields just as frequently as an AST could drop Aspected Helios, but doesn't have to worry about MP managment, and the AST can instead use fewer healing spells to keep up with mitigated damage. In the same time it takes a Diurnast to cast A. Benefic, Tick, Benefic II; a Nocturnast has cast Benefic II and followed up with Benefic.

Doing this, as stated by others, front loads your healing. Doing this on my AST in Diurnal I got an average of ~3734 by casting A.B, then Benefic II, and allowing for the initial tick as well as a follow-up, as that would be thereabouts when a Noctast would have completed their casting. Meanwhile, the Noctast cast only Benefic II and Benefic and came out with ~4223 -- a difference of 1.13 Sure, the HoT will continue to tick, but they're more than likely going to be negated or mitigated by incoming damage.

If you allow for more healing with the Diurnast, you would also have to allow for more healing from the Noctast, hence why I didn't wait further for the ticks or use any further spells.

Thing is, your SCH partner doesn't give a crap about the +5% potency Benefic II cast out of Nocturnal. A 5% bonus to healing spells isn't nearly as strong a contribution as bringing on-demand HoT effects with Diurnal while still being able to use the base kit without the tiny, tacked-on potency buff.

Again, if you're not bringing Noct to cast shields, you aren't bringing it at all.

It's not really that on-demand, though, is it? Once a HoT is set, you can't really recast over it because doing so is clipping, and you're not healing efficiently then. Sure you can stack A. Benefic and A. Helios, but doing so runs into the same problem as the above scenario where you still have to wait on GCD before you can use the next spell, and by then the Noctast has cast cast fewer spells to get more returns.

[Cynfael]

The Diurnal AST will always cast fewer spells for more returns if they do it right. The HoT ticks are what help you follow with a Benefic I rather than II, for example. And yes, being able to apply your HoT whenever you want to = on-demand. Contrast with SCH's only HoT, which is tied to a 60 second CD and a specific fairy.

I think you severely underestimate the usefulness of HoTs because you only perceive them as tacked-on overhealing rather than as a key component in your healing strategy.

[Apeiron]

The Diurnal AST will always cast fewer spells for more returns if they do it right. The HoT ticks are what help you follow with a Benefic I rather than II, for example.

I think you severely underestimate the usefulness of HoTs because you only perceive them as tacked-on overhealing rather than as a key component in your healing strategy.

I don't consider them tacked on any more than the WHM's HoT. Even with the ticks being followed by a Benefic I, they still do not match a Benefic I from Nocturast because the Noctast starts off with Benefic I, and not A. Benefic.

[Aurum]

Here's some data for you:
-Ilvl 181 AST with i180 Law wep
In Diurnal, my A. Benefic heals for 1200 initially followed by 6 ticks of 700 hp per, for a total of 5500 healing
Also in diurnal, my Benefic 1 heals for 2550 hp on average.
Casting A. Benefic once and Benefic 1 for each tick of the hot after (that's 6 casts) that nets me a total hp healed of 20700

In Nocturnal, my Benefic II heals for 4500 and my Benefic 1 heals for 2700.
Following the same pattern as above, if I cast Benefic II and then Benefic 1 six times afterwards I end up with a total hp healed of... 20700

Something to consider though... this assumes these spells will be cast at a 1:6 ratio. If however, you cast fewer benefics per Benefic II/Diurnal A benefic, the more Diurnal sect becomes more efficient than Nocturnal. On the flipside, the more Benefics you cast per Benefic II/Diurnal A benefic, the more potent Nocturnal becomes.

[Aurum]

Lastly, please remember that this is only considering these 3 specific spells, all of which are single target. ASTs AoE healing potency is something I'm not going to comment on other than to say it's pretty lackluster in either sect.

[Apeiron]

Here's some data for you:
-Ilvl 181 AST with i180 Law wep
In Diurnal, my A. Benefic heals for 1200 initially followed by 6 ticks of 600 hp per, for a total of 5500 healing
Also in diurnal, my Benefic 1 heals for 2550 hp on average.
Casting A. Benefic once and Benefic 1 for each tick of the hot after (that's 6 casts) that nets me a total hp healed of 20700

In Nocturnal, my Benefic II heals for 4500 and my Benefic 1 heals for 2700.
Following the same pattern as above, if I cast Benefic II and then Benefic 1 six times afterwards I end up with a total hp healed of... 20700

Something to consider though... this assumes these spells will be cast at a 1:6 ratio. If however, you cast fewer benefics per Benefic II/Diurnal A benefic, the more Diurnal sect becomes more efficient than Nocturnal. On the flipside, the more Benefics you cast per Benefic II/Diurnal A benefic, the more potent Nocturnal becomes.

Lastly, please remember that this is only considering these 3 specific spells, all of which are single target. ASTs AoE healing potency is something I'm not going to comment on other than to say it's pretty lackluster in either sect.

Thanks for posting this. This is awesome.

[Zholi]

You're supposed to have regen rolling 100% of the time. Your comparison literally makes no sense. Regens are like 50% of your healing. There's no way a 5% boost to your other spells can make up for that. You should honestly just let this thread die. It's embarrassing.

[Aurum]

Snip

For regen to be 50% of your single target healing, you would have to cast 2 benefics over the course of A. Benefic's duration. Just an FYI

My comparison assumes you have 100% uptime on A. Benefic since you only have time for 6 casts (totaling 15 seconds worth of casting time since 6 casts at 2.5s per is 6*2.5=15) after your initial A. Benefic cast (0 seconds to cast, but 2.5 seconds recovery time).

Again, the situation is somewhat more complicated than the limited example I gave, since it only looks at A. Benefic/Benefic I in Diurnal and Benefic II/Benefic I in Nocturnal.

So, to put the results in english instead of numbers, if you're chain-cast healing one person using only the spells I point out above, the sects have almost exactly the same output.

[Zholi]

I didn't say it's 50% single target. It's 50% in general. And to completely discount the importance of AOE healing in a raid is absurd. If that's not part of the discussion, then why even have it? Pure single target healing is a situation that doesn't exist.

There is literally no good argument for using Nocturnal with a SCH, and the fact that people are even discussing it makes me worry for the intelligence of the community.

[GideonHighmourn]

There is literally no good argument for using Nocturnal with a SCH, and the fact that people are even discussing it makes me worry for the intelligence of the community.

It's equivalent to bringing a WHM who only uses Cure, Cure II, and Medica with no DS or PoM.

Even though it's possible and passable, there's really no reason to do it.