AST Sect Theory

[Apeiron]

One page directly behind this one. Doesn't matter anymore. I'm done with this topic. You're an inexperienced healer trying to tell very experienced healers why we are wrong. Trying to teach you is like beating a dead horse with a stick, and this topic has been beaten by so many sticks, that it isn't even recognizable anymore. Enjoy the rest of your post.

I hope that, one day, you level your astrologian to 60 and heal something other than 4man content with it so you can see, first hand, the error in your theory. You obviously will not listen to evidence and testimony of very geared and very skilled healers.

♪ So long; farewell; alvederzane; goodbye~ ♪

[Zholi]

You mean "auf wiedersehen?" Anyway.

You don't seem to get it. Your theory is wrong on paper. It's not even worth testing. Asking me to test this is like asking me to test whether 2 + 2 = 8. You can't tell me I don't know because I "haven't tested." This is literally just common sense. Do we test whether it's a good idea to run into oncoming traffic? No, because it's common sense. And when you have an utter dearth of it, it causes problems with other people, as you can see. The level of hubris a level 59 DRG has to have to argue with a healer in arguably the top FC in the world about HEALING is something I cannot even fathom.

[Apeiron]

You mean "auf wiedersehen?" Anyway.

You don't seem to get it. Your theory is wrong on paper. It's not even worth testing. Asking me to test this is like asking me to test whether 2 + 2 = 8. You can't tell me I don't know because I "haven't tested." This is literally just common sense. Do we test whether it's a good idea to run into oncoming traffic? No, because it's common sense. And when you have an utter dearth of it, it causes problems with other people, as you can see. The level of hubris a level 59 DRG has to have to argue with a healer in arguably the top FC in the world about HEALING is something I cannot even fathom.

That's what I get for not looking up the lyrics XD

I fail to see what my choice in job to finish out the MSQ has to do with anything. It was simply the class I chose to level first, because I enjoy it. If you're so ready to write off what someone has to say based on that criteria alone, well, that's just disappointing and sad of you. Hubris is a funny word, though. Only partially because it's fun to say, but because of its definition being related to pride and self-confidence. Neither of which apply to me putting forward my hypothesis, however incomplete it might be.

I'd like to know where my hypothesis fails off on paper, though. That was a worthwhile remark. No one here has yet to refute any of the numbers I've put down with their own, and instead I've been met with a fantastical display of what can be watered down, "ast regens are love, ast regens are lief".

[Zholi]

That's what I get for not looking up the lyrics XD

I fail to see what my choice in job to finish out the MSQ has to do with anything. It was simply the class I chose to level first, because I enjoy it. If you're so ready to write off what someone has to say based on that criteria alone, well, that's just disappointing and sad of you. Hubris is a funny word, though. Only partially because it's fun to say, but because of its definition being related to pride and self-confidence. Neither of which apply to me putting forward my hypothesis, however incomplete it might be.

I'd like to know where my hypothesis fails off on paper, though. That was a worthwhile remark. No one here has yet to refute any of the numbers I've put down with their own, and instead I've been met with a fantastical display of what can be watered down, "ast regens are love, ast regens are lief".

The best numbers are real world data. As far as I know, you're not allowed to post parses here. And I definitely don't use a parser and definitely don't have hundreds of data points that show Diurnal has consistently higher HPS than Nocturnal in real world applications, so I couldn't post any if I wanted to.

[Apeiron]

It keeps refreshing on the Healer forums. My OCD compels me to look. If all you wanted was raw numbers to disprove you, should have said so in the first place. But, you didn't, you asked for perspective; which we gave and you were unhappy with. So here are the numbers:

Nocturnal Sect

Aspected Benefic
190 initial heal
+5% nocturnal stance
x2 for shield
399 total potency

Aspected Helios
140 initial potency
+5% nocturnal stance
x2 for shield
assumed 8 players hit
2352 total potency

Diurnal Sect

Aspected Benefic
190 initial potency
+100 potency regen for 18 seconds (6ticks)
790 total potency

Aspected Helios
140 initial potency
+50 potency regen for 30 seconds (10ticks)
assumed 8 players hit
5120 total potency

In both cases, Diurnal pulls ahead by more than twice the potency per heal, however Diurnal has one major advantage. Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition extend those durations.Let's just assume that only the single target is used for single target, and aoe is used for aoe, though these could be mixed and matched in several different ways, this is the more clear cut use.

Diurnal Sect + TD/CO

Aspected Benefic
190 initial potency
+100 potency regen for 18 seconds (6ticks)
+100 potency regen for 15 seconds (5ticks) by way of Time Dilation
1290 total potency

Aspected Benefic
140 initial potency
+50 potency regen for 30 seconds (10ticks)
+50 potency regen for 5 seconds (1tick, 1 second away from a second)
assumed 8 players hit
5520 total potency

While it would be unlikely for a good Astrologian to use either Time Dilation or Celestial Opposition for the regens alone, it is still an option and this perfectly illustrates why Diurnal is the sect to use. If you want to consider that a Scholar can mistakenly erase a shield placed by an astrologian and vice versa, then you must also consider that it could effectively cut the above potencies in half.

Please do not try to bring up the argument saying that shields are easier to use then regens because it is false. A good healer knows when to use both.

With these number in mind, why would you pick a class that has 5% stronger, yet 5% slower cast, heals in one category with the other category of heals more than 50% weaker, still 5% slower cast?

Huh, didn't realize AB in noct = Benefic before, thanks for that. I'll have to see what other things are lying about.

But, for the record, you're comparing the go-to healing spell in Diurnal (A. Benefic) for HoT to the same spell in Nocturnal. As I've stated before, the AST would not be using this as frequently in Nocturnal as they would in Diurnal for the reason we've stated before (and you've so graciously refreshed!) as their other options are more potent and the SCH shields would be present. Which is why the Noctast would focus primarily on Benefic, Helios, and Benefic II. It becomes their bread and butter, just as A. Benefic, A. Helios, and benefic are the Diurnast's.

The best numbers are real world data. As far as I know, you're not allowed to post parses here. And I definitely don't use a parser and definitely don't have hundreds of data points that show Diurnal has consistently higher HPS than Nocturnal in real world applications, so I couldn't post any if I wanted to.

I agree, real world numbers are best for the obvious reason. They're real. We can work with them. The hypothetical numbers are, however, my best option until I meet the criteria needed to go into Alexander Savage. Again, I'm asking because of that inability, before game mechanics change to Alexander Savage or AST so that there's a baseline. While we're not about to parse and violate our user agreements, there are ways to refute my claims by looking at the potencies I've posted before and compare them to your experiences.

I would like to know if HPS is counting ticks of regen that tick, but don't heal -- as in, the party member their on is at full, and so the cure goes to waste. Counting those numbers towards your overall HPS should skew your real numbers in a favorable manner for Diurnal. I would like to hope that Diurnal has a higher HPS overall than Nocturnal, it ticks a 150 potency every 3 seconds if you've combined both your HoT on one target, and that still leaves a 50 potency ticking away at anyone who was close enough to catch the A. Helios, boosted to 150 again every time you need a little extra HoT to casually bring your party members back up (peppered with a benefic, maybe).

Do you happen to know what the average difference between your Diurnal AST and your Nocturnal AST tends to be?

[Aurum]

Snip

Something to consider about this argument (the one in which the Hots are ticking, but people are full health) is that if you accept that this is the case, it makes things swing in diurnal's favor since you're accepting that people are topped off often enough that overhealing becomes an issue. Edit: Or it could mean that your cohealer is throwing out too many heals, but that's a seperate issue.

As far as how often these HoTs actually do tick when people are at full hp, experience tells me that people end up spending a lot of time at less than 100% hp when you have an AST in the party, hence overhealing ends up being not so much of a concern.

[Amiaze]

I'd like to know where my hypothesis fails off on paper, though. That was a worthwhile remark. No one here has yet to refute any of the numbers I've put down with their own, and instead I've been met with a fantastical display of what can be watered down, "ast regens are love, ast regens are lief".

One of the reasons your theory cannot be fully supported was mentioned way earlier in this thread. Nocturnal Sect's shields overwriting SCH's buffs automatically makes one of their shielding abilities pointless unless the healers have perfect coordination over Teamspeak or something. For that sort of effort, why not just go to Diurnal Sect?

I very much think that we should be treating AST as a WHM or SCH Jr, and this can easily be seen in combat. I'll use Nael deus Darnus as an example.

WHM can easily heal the party to full, even if they take Lunar Dynamo by mistake (assuming that it didn't outright kill them). Would AST helping with proactive heals be helpful? Yes, because it would mean that WHM would have to heal less -- but because WHM's healing potency is already so high, you would then risk overhealing, anyway, making one of the healers waste MP. It would be more preferable that the party be shielded throughout the fight so that WHM doesn't have to spend so much MP healing in the first place.

Now, let's use A4 as a second example. There is a lot of unavoidable splash damage in that fight. Would shields be preferable? Likely, yes. But, because SCH's shields cannot work with ASTs, you won't be doubling up on shields any time soon. So let's say the AST was in Diurnal Sect with a WHM. The healing output would be amazing, but again, you'd run the risk of overhealing and wasting MP. The problem with having two WHMs in later Coils was that the damage output was very high, and eventually, one of them would run out of MP if the run wasn't going smoothly. The other would follow suit. The problem with having dual SCHs was that the reactive healing just wasn't really there. They were meant to mitigate damage, not heal through it.

If a WHM were to run out of MP during a raid, then having AST in Diurnal Sect would be great...except for the fact that if they started in Nocturnal Sect, the point is now moot. I think that it was for situations like this that AST received healing buffs. This way, your party isn't SoL when a WHM runs out of MP. If you had a SCH run out before the AST, and you were in Nocturnal Sect, you might be able to argue that their pet could help out with the healing while you shielded...but, inevitably, you would just be waiting for the SCH's health to regen. And God forbid your party take a heavy AoE. If you're in an 8-man-raid, it won't be as easy to heal through that.

That's not to say that either combo is impossible, but it is noticeably more difficult to pull off until you have said content on farm.

You could always try running with WHM in Diurnal Sect and SCH in Nocturnal Sect, but you'll find that your roles overlap far too much. AST was meant to be a more flexible answer to the WHM/WHM and SCH/SCH combo problem, and should be treated as such. It has the ability to cover the weaknesses of both classes, so why not use the ability properly?

Edit: In response to your remark on nobody refuting your numbers, I'll admit that I won't try to. I don't know all the numbers personally. Nor do I think that you really need to. You can, but looking at basic potencies and ability rules should be enough. If not, then there's always the tried-and-true method: put it to the test in and endgame raid and see how well it goes.

[Apeiron]

Didn't expect to see this thread back, haha. Good to see more replies, though (even if it irritates some others). Amiaze, I'm going to work backwards on your post, so forgive me if I miss something.

Edit: In response to your remark on nobody refuting your numbers, I'll admit that I won't try to. I don't know all the numbers personally. Nor do I think that you really need to. You can, but looking at basic potencies and ability rules should be enough. If not, then there's always the tried-and-true method: put it to the test in and endgame raid and see how well it goes.

Potencies need to be looked at now, anyways, but there's no real need to refute them. On paper, the numbers I've posted up are pretty sound given their scenarios they're included in. The problem comes from application, which leads me to the next part of your post:

You could always try running with WHM in Diurnal Sect and SCH in Nocturnal Sect, but you'll find that your roles overlap far too much. AST was meant to be a more flexible answer to the WHM/WHM and SCH/SCH combo problem, and should be treated as such. It has the ability to cover the weaknesses of both classes, so why not use the ability properly?

Yes, I could, and in-point-of-fact I will. I created this thread back when my AST was lv52-53, and I had not yet completed the MSQ to unlock Alexander. It was an attempt to elicit more talks about methods to play the AST by posing the hypothesis and letting available Alexander players try it. From what I'd read, the primary opinion was (and pretty much still is) that unless you're running dungeons or other content outside of raids, the AST should never be outside of Diurnal Sect. I disliked that opinion, as it relegated the AST to WHM Jr. (in which case why ever bring an AST?) and left an entire mechanic (the Sects, more specifically Nocturnal Sect) untouched by the players to figure out all of its shortcomings, and ways to make it work.

I'm happy to say my AST is 58, pushing 59, and my next move is to recruit (or be recruited) and test out my hypothesis to see where, and under what conditions, it breaks.

I did consider the overlap in roles; however, I looked at it from the standpoint of capitalizing on your healer's strengths (regens/lots a single target heals) as with WHM/Diurnast you'd have plenty of ticking regens that could leave healers to do other necessary things, and with SCH/Noctast you'd have effectively 3 healers capable of responding to mechanics differently, but ultimately working towards the same end (Succor, Divine Wind, and Helios in tandem).

One of the reasons your theory cannot be fully supported was mentioned way earlier in this thread. Nocturnal Sect's shields overwriting SCH's buffs automatically makes one of their shielding abilities pointless unless the healers have perfect coordination over Teamspeak or something. For that sort of effort, why not just go to Diurnal Sect?

I very much think that we should be treating AST as a WHM or SCH Jr, and this can easily be seen in combat. I'll use Nael deus Darnus as an example.

WHM can easily heal the party to full, even if they take Lunar Dynamo by mistake (assuming that it didn't outright kill them). Would AST helping with proactive heals be helpful? Yes, because it would mean that WHM would have to heal less -- but because WHM's healing potency is already so high, you would then risk overhealing, anyway, making one of the healers waste MP. It would be more preferable that the party be shielded throughout the fight so that WHM doesn't have to spend so much MP healing in the first place.

Now, let's use A4 as a second example. There is a lot of unavoidable splash damage in that fight. Would shields be preferable? Likely, yes. But, because SCH's shields cannot work with ASTs, you won't be doubling up on shields any time soon. So let's say the AST was in Diurnal Sect with a WHM. The healing output would be amazing, but again, you'd run the risk of overhealing and wasting MP. The problem with having two WHMs in later Coils was that the damage output was very high, and eventually, one of them would run out of MP if the run wasn't going smoothly. The other would follow suit. The problem with having dual SCHs was that the reactive healing just wasn't really there. They were meant to mitigate damage, not heal through it.

If a WHM were to run out of MP during a raid, then having AST in Diurnal Sect would be great...except for the fact that if they started in Nocturnal Sect, the point is now moot. I think that it was for situations like this that AST received healing buffs. This way, your party isn't SoL when a WHM runs out of MP. If you had a SCH run out before the AST, and you were in Nocturnal Sect, you might be able to argue that their pet could help out with the healing while you shielded...but, inevitably, you would just be waiting for the SCH's health to regen. And God forbid your party take a heavy AoE. If you're in an 8-man-raid, it won't be as easy to heal through that.

That's not to say that either combo is impossible, but it is noticeably more difficult to pull off until you have said content on farm.

I particularly enjoyed this chunk of text. Especially because you used both sects in your examples instead of singling out Nocturnal. Thank you for this They're more of what I was expecting (hoping, really) to get from some of the more seasoned healers.

I still dislike the argument that more communication is required, though. Is it really that much more communication? Having two healers who understand, and have researched, the fight and noting at what times they might both need to use shields shouldn't really require more communication. And with something like Teamspeak, why would a simple phrase like "shields" or, perhaps more appropriate "Helios" require more coordination?

If I've missed anything, let me know. Pressed for time, atm, so I don't think I covered everything I wanted.

[Amiaze]

Yes, I could, and in-point-of-fact I will... From what I'd read, the primary opinion was (and pretty much still is) that unless you're running dungeons or other content outside of raids, the AST should never be outside of Diurnal Sect. I disliked that opinion, as it relegated the AST to WHM Jr. (in which case why ever bring an AST?)

I really wish we were on the same server. I'd love to test that with you. I can't run all of the dungeons with AST yet (like you, I'm still leveling it, but I'm almost there), but in my experience, it isn't always best to be in Diurnal Sect. In fact, I've been going through every dungeon I can in Nocturnal Sect. I believe the only one that simply wouldn't let me do that was either Dzamael Darkhold or Aurum Vale. The damage going out was simply too much to shield through, so I used Stoneskin as a temporary shield while healing everyone up. Please let me know how your experiment works. I might even ask someone to help me to the same thing.

I still think that AST is great even in these scenarios, though, because of their cards. They are RNG-based, once Bole or Balance are drawn, the difference is noticeable.

I did consider the overlap in roles; however, I looked at it from the standpoint of capitalizing on your healer's strengths

That makes sense. I would argue, however, that AST's actual strength is in its versatility and cards rather than just in shielding or healing. If you're focusing on an EX Primal, then having constant regens might be a good idea, and it would likely be easier to pull off having a WHM and AST in Diurnal Sect (although I wouldn't recommend SCH and Nocturnal Sect for reasons such as EX Shiva's ice spears, which will likely kill anyone who is behind her when they aren't supposed to be if they have no shields up). It would leave the healers available to help with DPS and phase pushes. However, that wouldn't be as safe in Coil or Alexander, especially in A4, where there is a big healer focus.

I can't say that I can justify WHM and Diurnal Sect simply because of the overlap, but I also don't think it would result in a tank's death in a dungeon. It's really harder content (T9/T13, A4/AS4) where it would become an issue. As for SCH and Nocturnal Sect, overwriting each other's abilities would likely result in death. I'll explain why below.

As for effectively having three healers rather than two, you could argue that a pet could make up for a lack of reactive healing where a SCH and Nocturnal AST could shield, except that the shields would not be consistent due to the overlap. Going into Diurnal would mean that a SCH could shield while their pet helped heal, and then AST could help heal and focus more on trying to drawing cards that would help with damage output (assuming that the party's HP is already topped off and they aren't taking a lot of damage). In this case, having the AST be in the opposite form of their co-healer would be more beneficial.

I particularly enjoyed this chunk of text. Especially because you used both sects in your examples instead of singling out Nocturnal. Thank you for this They're more of what I was expecting (hoping, really) to get from some of the more seasoned healers.

Thank you! I'm glad I could help.

I still dislike the argument that more communication is required, though. Is it really that much more communication? Having two healers who understand, and have researched, the fight and noting at what times they might both need to use shields shouldn't really require more communication. And with something like Teamspeak, why would a simple phrase like "shields" or, perhaps more appropriate "Helios" require more coordination?

This is where I think risking something like having two healers doing the exact same job would fall apart. My static originally had a WHM, but I was also a WHM, and we found that we would oftentimes waste abilities. Because we were both so focused (and we had no form of voice chat at the time), he might use Benediction a half-second before I used my own, or vice-versa. In the end, one of us would waste the CD. Or I would use Cure II after a tankbuster, he would use Cure II as well, but I would already be readying a second Cure II. Because I traded two pieces of gear out to increase my spell speed for healing in pinches, I couldn't cancel the move and, ultimately, it would be wasted.

Later, we would call out moves, but it's a bit more difficult to do. We were in T5 at the time, and if I had to cast Benediction or begin casting Stoneskin to help mitigate Death Sentence, I would normally end up calling it out as I performed the move. Emergency situations like that don't allow for a lot of forewarning. This tactic would be better used when farming something, but not when attempting to clear it.

Because of this, my co-healer switched to SCH.

My static has since disbanded, but I've found communicating with other healers to be very difficult because I don't know how they prefer to heal, and they don't know how I do, either. Because my static had such a hard time with T9, I have what my tank calls "Nael PTSD". The moment I see health fall even a fraction, I send out a Stoneskin and toss out a Cure or Cure II. It's just reflex. When I don't do it, and I see someone's health fall to around 75%, I don't know that the other healer is trying to conserve MP. So I'll being healing very quickly in an attempt to get them back up at the same time they do. Again, one of us ends up wasting MP.


I think that something else that should be considered is the party composition. I hate to keep using T9 as an example, but it's my go-to because I know its healing mechanics better than other instances. I'm...not exactly proud to say that I was stuck there for that long, but oh well.

As I mentioned before, we found that having two WHMs would, in most instances, become rather problematic. It wasn't so much an issue in T9 so long as we had a Warrior tanking for us.

With Warrior, I found that, because my WAR was taking so much damage so consistently on top of players getting hit by mechanics, my MP would often fall to about 60%-70% before the Golem Phase of the fight. I would actually use that time to let it regenerate while tanking a Golem. With another WHM, however, MP wasn't really an issue. Assuming AST is in Diurnal Sect for this, WHM could benefit from it. But the healing potency wouldn't be as high as having another WHM, so they can't answer the MP issue as well as another WHM could have unless the can consistently draw Bole.

For this, I would much prefer to see Nocturnal Sect.

In the same fight, we later had my WAR switch to PLD. He wasn't happy about it, but it made the fight a lot easier. Healing him up was no issue at all. The only issue I would encounter would be if he took a hit he wasn't supposed to, or if he got a critical. It was rare, but it did happen from time-to-time, and because I would often be dropping a meteor somewhere or would be in the midst of casting Stoneskin, Nael's next auto-attack would kill him. Two WHMs or a WHM and AST in Diurnal Sect simply could not heal through this. A SCH or Nocturnal Sect would be needed to mitigate some of the damage and allow for enough time to heal.


Note: At one point in my earlier post, I accidentally said "proactive" rather "reactive". Sorry about that.

[Ninimo_Babamo]

It keeps refreshing on the Healer forums. My OCD compels me to look. If all you wanted was raw numbers to disprove you, should have said so in the first place. But, you didn't, you asked for perspective; which we gave and you were unhappy with. So here are the numbers:

Nocturnal Sect

Aspected Benefic
190 initial heal
+5% nocturnal stance
x2 for shield
399 total potency

Aspected Helios
140 initial potency
+5% nocturnal stance
x2 for shield
assumed 8 players hit
2352 total potency

Diurnal Sect

Aspected Benefic
190 initial potency
+100 potency regen for 18 seconds (6ticks)
790 total potency

Aspected Helios
140 initial potency
+50 potency regen for 30 seconds (10ticks)
assumed 8 players hit
5120 total potency

In both cases, Diurnal pulls ahead by more than twice the potency per heal, however Diurnal has one major advantage. Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition extend those durations.Let's just assume that only the single target is used for single target, and aoe is used for aoe, though these could be mixed and matched in several different ways, this is the more clear cut use.

Diurnal Sect + TD/CO

Aspected Benefic
190 initial potency
+100 potency regen for 18 seconds (6ticks)
+100 potency regen for 15 seconds (5ticks) by way of Time Dilation
1290 total potency

Aspected Benefic
140 initial potency
+50 potency regen for 30 seconds (10ticks)
+50 potency regen for 5 seconds (1tick, 1 second away from a second)
assumed 8 players hit
5520 total potency

While it would be unlikely for a good Astrologian to use either Time Dilation or Celestial Opposition for the regens alone, it is still an option and this perfectly illustrates why Diurnal is the sect to use. If you want to consider that a Scholar can mistakenly erase a shield placed by an astrologian and vice versa, then you must also consider that it could effectively cut the above potencies in half.

Please do not try to bring up the argument saying that shields are easier to use then regens because it is false. A good healer knows when to use both.

With these number in mind, why would you pick a class that has 5% stronger, yet 5% slower cast, heals in one category with the other category of heals more than 50% weaker, still 5% slower cast?