AST Sect Theory

[Apeiron]

Which is why they are gimping themselves by NOT being in Dirunal Sect. You follow this by saying AST's shield are better, which they aren't. AST's AoE shields have a potency of 150 vs SCH's 150, it's NOT "twice the potency of Succor"; don't try to skew the numbers. And they DO overwrite SCH shields, whether they are stronger or not.



Again, you are arguing about abilities that aren't specific to NOCTURNAL SECT. Benefic II and Helios are BOTH available to Dirunal Sect. Yes, they are 5% stronger in Nocturnal, but that's not going to suddenly make Noct + SCH more effective than Dirunal + SCH, simply because you have all the complications that come with shield overwriting. Not to mention, Dirunal's HEALING with DoTs is far more powerful than Noct's shielding potential, which you have already suggested they not do (?).

There is nothing that AST (Nocturnal) + SCH can bring to the table that AST (Dirunal) + SCH can't do better with less effort/communication.

Are you are actually suggesting that AST goes Nocturnal with SCH simply because of the 5% bonus on Benefic I/II and Helios, while neglecting Aspected Helios/Benefic? Because that's what I'm starting to get from this. Diurnal offers far more HEALING POTENTIAL than Nocturnal can by using Aspected Benefic/Helios.

The miscommunication comes from me not clarifying that I meant Helios, and your assumtion that I was referring to A. Helios -- which I already clarified earlier was weaker than Succor. I'm also not going to say they don't overwrite shields, because we all know they do. I'm not attempting to skewer numbers, please understand. I don't make any progress with my theory if I provide false numbers.

Now, yes, those skills are available to the AST in Diurnal, but they're also not as potent. It makes a differenece when you look at how the SCH is better off shielding, Divine Wind, and then healing with the AST alongside them than they are relying on regen. This is because that overall Divine Wind is going to do an overall better job of healing the group than A. Helios. Its duration is shorter, but has a higher consistant potency of 100. When I compared my SCH in the same gear as my AST, I found that Divine Wind was healing for twice as much as my A. Helios (surprise! or, well, not really :P).

There was more originally, but I seem to have made a mistake when I was editing.

It's been said a million times now. Please go test it for yourself, because we did ages ago. This is a completely fruitless topic.

I would love to. Sadly, I don't have a Static or FC to help me, and queues are so long for coil that it's almost impossible for me to get a full party during the weekdays.

[Cynfael]

I wasn't trying to say that Diurnal is only effective in recovery, but that it's effectiveness is dependent on the 50potency healing more than the damage someone is receiving. Comparatively, a SCH is better off using Eos's Whispering Dawn, shielding, and letting the AST help heal up than they are in letting them drop A. Helios.

Whispering Dawn 21sec 100pot/tick - 7 ticks = total potency of 700
A. Helios 30sec 140+50/tick - 10 ticks = total potency of 640

A. Helios also costs nearly 1.5x as much Benefic II with a lesser cure potency per single target. In the instances where people take too much damage, it'd be better to rely on SCH shield while the AST follows up with stronger Helios and Benefic or Benefic II to keep up with the damage, as you can cast benefic and benefic II quicker than you can wait on regens.

The problem with SCH+SCH is that they don't work effectively together because you have one SCH at any given time overwriting the other's shields in an attempt to either protect party members or or provide AoE healing. When paired with an AST, this is not the problem. The SCH gets shield priority, while the AST assists with keeping HP up. Their AoE has a potency of 304.5 (again I don't know if this is rounded up or down) compared to Succor which has a potency of 150 -- twice the potency of Succor, and without worrying about shields being overwritten.

I might be a little lost here, but I don't see why on earth you would take a Noct AST with a SCH following this logic. The Diurnal AST has a teeny-tiny bit less upfront potency in exchange for massively increased healing over time and MP efficiency before you even consider that CO and Time Dilation also happen to extend their HoT effects.

If you aren't bringing the Noct AST to provide shielding, you aren't bringing it at all. Diurnal beats it in every other way possible.

[Apeiron]

Got to make this brief. Did some numbers for you. Diu - Benefic II healed for 3600ish, Noct - Benefic II for 3900ish. Diu Aspected Benefic Regen is about 500ish a tick. So yes, front loaded Noct is doing more healing but when you add HoT into the mix, Diu overtakes the benefit in one tick. Noct does have uses though, mainly speed runs where you can add an extra buffer to the tank and not get hate from it but as a whole... Noct sucks and needs buff/change.

Well go level up to 60 then so you are on the same page as everyone else =P

Thanks for at least running numbers. Now, was this just with a training dummy or did you run this in content? I ask because the 500/tick is important if it's healing more than incoming damage. Otherwise we're par for the course, and that's only kind of okay.

You responded to the same post, twice. Check my follow-up.

Are you are actually suggesting that AST goes Nocturnal with SCH simply because of the 5% bonus on Benefic I/II and Helios, while neglecting Aspected Helios/Benefic? Because that's what I'm starting to get from this. Diurnal offers far more HEALING POTENTIAL than Nocturnal can by using Aspected Benefic/Helios.

I fixed my post, please look at it and reply as you see fit

I'm suggesting that the SCH is a powerhouse in it's own right, which we all acknowledge, and doesn't require a WHM or WHM fill-in to get through tougher content. The +5% to healing potency means that the AST adds 304.5 AoE healing to the SCH 150 + shields. That instead of a 400 potency heal + 300 potency heals from fairy, the AST assists with benefic at 399 potency or benefic II at 651. Diurnal only offers stronger healing potential if there isn't a greater amount of incoming damage than the HoT can cover. That is what I'm suggesting.

[GideonHighmourn]

snip

Suggesting that AST use Nocturnal with SCH just for the 5% healing increase (while ignoring Aspected Benefic/Helios), rather than Diurnal, is complete nonsense. Dirunal provides far more overall healing through Aspected Benefic/Helios compared to Nocturnal using Benefic I/II and Helios. Yes, Noct Sect healing is more upfront, but the overall healing done will be far, far lower compared to Diurnal and much less MP-Efficient.

No testing is even needed if that's what you're suggesting.

[Apeiron]

Suggesting that AST use Nocturnal with SCH just for the 5% healing increase (while ignoring Aspected Benefic/Helios), rather than Diurnal, is complete nonsense. Dirunal provides far more overall healing through Aspected Benefic/Helios compared to Nocturnal using Benefic I/II and Helios. Yes, Noct Sect healing is more upfront, but the overall healing done will be far, far lower compared to Diurnal and much less MP-Efficient.

No testing is even needed if that's what you're suggesting.

Not sure where it comes in as nonsensical. Out of curiosity I went to check out some Alexander Savage videos, just to see what types of damage a healer would be dealing with (does this make me an expert suddenly? No, but it's what I've got to work with until I unlock Alexander and have an AST at 60 + static or FC). So far with A1S it looks like most of the damage is single target, directed at tanks, which wouldn't require HoT when most of the damage incoming is greater than what can be healed. Might make it easier, what with 750 HoT for 18sec (this is using Dyvid's 500 + half again for A. Helios) but when the damage is 2k+... why wouldn't it be better to have the improved healing potency? The combined HoT for those 18sec is fantastic, but not too far off from Divine Wind's 700 over 21 seconds.

I get where people find Diurnal MP efficient, but I haven't had MP problems with Nocturnal. Then again, those might be unrelated. For clarity, though, because maybe I've got the wrong idea about it, MP efficiency is the state of your MP pool coming out of a fight? Or is it better defined by the cost of spells per potency?

[GideonHighmourn]

snip

Again, you are completely ignoring the bonus healing offered by Diurnal's HoTs in favor of upfront healing with lower overall output. Not to mention Aspected Benefic is also instant cast and Benefic II is not; so the "upfront" heal of Nocturnal is even less so, since it's back loaded with a cast time compared to Dirunal's Aspected Benefic.

Dirunal > Nocturnal for healing throughput and efficiency; it doesn't need to be tested. Diurnal still has access to Benefic II, so you can easily stack HoTs and Benefic II if needed; Benefic II isn't exclusive to Nocturnal, and even while more potent in Nocturnal, isn't worth forgoing healing tics for when paired with SCH (which is what you're suggesting). The HoT's that Diurnal offer more than make up for the 5% difference.

You also lose out on CU's healing ticks, which while situational, are usually far more preferred to 10% DMG reduction. Also combined with CO + Dirunal HoTs, Dirunal pulls way ahead of Nocturnal for MP efficiency.

[Apeiron]

Again, you are completely ignoring the bonus healing offered by Diurnal's HoTs in favor of upfront healing with lower overall output. Not to mention Aspected Benefic is also instant cast and Benefic II is not; so the "upfront" heal of Nocturnal is even less so, since it's back loaded with a cast time compared to Dirunal's Aspected Benefic.

Dirunal > Nocturnal for healing throughput and efficiency; it doesn't need to be tested. Diurnal still has access to Benefic II, so you can easily stack HoTs and Benefic II if needed; Benefic II isn't exclusive to Nocturnal, and even while more potent in Nocturnal, isn't worth forgoing healing tics for when paired with SCH (which is what you're suggesting). The HoT's that Diurnal offer more than make up for the 5% difference.

You also lose out on CU's healing ticks, which while situational, are usually far more preferred to 10% DMG reduction. Also combined with CO + Dirunal HoTs, Dirunal pulls way ahead of Nocturnal for MP efficiency.

What bonus healing? If the HoT doesn't place the party in a better state with incoming damage like the fairy or WHM HoT does, that's not bonus healing. At best that's dead-even and that's only acceptable because it doesn't hurt the party, but neither does it provide any real benefit.

A. Benefic is an instant cast in Diurnal at a potency of 190 + 100/18 seconds. If we run with Dyvid's numbers, we can substitute 100 potency for ~500 HP, and 190 potency for ~1,000 (leaning to the lower end). That places A. Benefic alone at a return of ~4,000 HP if no damage is being done. If damage for Alexander Savage is 2k at the low end, with spikes of upward or greater than 4k, A. Benefic isn't doing much. It isn't until you pair it with shields (adlo more than likely) Divine Wind, A. Helios, other regens, or more healing spells than should be necessary, that it helps get ahead. And most of that is to help keep one person up while others get a neat regen from A. Helios so that things aren't quite so "ogawdno". Helios will get your party up faster in Nocturnal sect and should be considered more reliable than trying to stack resources for regen.

In Nocturnal, your basic healing spells that you focus on are more potent, and are better suited for single target which is where you'd be needed. You're not going to utilize A. Benefic for it's lower healing and greater cost for sub-standard shields unless you're with a WHM and you know there are mechanics which must be shield against. Benefic alone is twice the potency of A. Benefic when in Nocturnal, and there isn't a need to shield because, as every SCH likes to remind Noct AST, they can keep shields up.

I'm not attempting to ignore that Diurn and Noct have the same basic spells, but with weaker potencies and when paired with a SCH less regen to stack, it doesn't look to me as if the HoT really makes up for allowing the AST to stack its stronger healing potential with the SCH plenty strong healing kit.

I'm not sure if I want to dance around with CU atm, as I haven't yet gotten that level. I've been primarily arguing off of what I've already got, and asking for people to help fill in the missing bits until I'm at 60 running Alex.