Astro in savage

[Leiloni]

I realize that the devs do not take healer DPS into consideration, but the playerbase (that raids) does.

If you've read the quote where they say that then you've already read the rest of it where they basically say they don't care. They don't design raids to only be done by the 1% that go in undergeared and need healer dps. They design it for a higher gear level where healer dps doesn't matter, so that a larger portion of the playerbase can actually go in and complete the content without feeling like they need to do more than what their class was designed for.

Because, you know, they're in this to make money so making the most amount of players feel like content is within their reach is important. If you expect them to change the way classes and raids are designed just for those world first/first week clear groups, then Wildstar's failure would like to say hello.

I'm not saying you can just go and change people's expectations, but they balance the game with certain ideas in mind so if you're playing in a different manner than intended, you're going to have to expect different results.

[Kaizersan]

I appreciate your point about people messing things up regardless of the healing comp, but when my AST healer asks for help with regular tank healing because he doesn't have the MP to keep up with it, there's a big problem. In addition, there's realistically very little in A1 to mess up as a DD. Get your mob into position in time, pop keen flurry when you get prey. If you get hit by anything avoidable in A1, you simply die.

The question you should ask are they healing properly and are they using their free heal everytime they need a big heal to save on MP also are they using synastry to help cure multiple people saving mp.

[RichardButte]

If you've read the quote where they say that then you've already read the rest of it where they basically say they don't care. They don't design raids to only be done by the 1% that go in undergeared and need healer dps. They design it for a higher gear level where healer dps doesn't matter, so that a larger portion of the playerbase can actually go in and complete the content without feeling like they need to do more than what their class was designed for. I'm not saying you can just go and change people's expectations, but they balance the game with certain ideas in mind so if you're playing in a different manner than intended, you're going to have to expect different results.

This seems a bit suspect to me, mainly because healer DPS only gets better as a group gets more geared and for them to outright IGNORE its existence is just bizarre.

If healers are able to DPS now when everyone has worse gear (weaker heals, lower HP, etc.), they should only be able to do even MORE DPS when players are geared to the point where the content will feel almost trivial...

The question you should ask are they healing properly and are they using their free heal everytime they need a big heal to save on MP also are they using synastry to help cure multiple people saving mp.

So you're going with the "they don't know how to play the class" argument, eh?

[Leiloni]

This seems a bit suspect to me, mainly because healer DPS only gets better as a group gets more geared and for them to outright IGNORE its existence is just bizarre.

If healers are able to DPS now when everyone has worse gear (weaker heals, lower HP, etc.), they should only be able to do even MORE DPS when players are geared to the point where the content will feel almost trivial...

Yes but their point was in that quote was to say that once your whole group has enough gear, healer dps is not needed to clear. So sure your healers will have more dps, but so will your tanks and dps. They don't care if healers dps to make it go faster, but they're not making it required to clear, simply because that would severely limit the amount of players that can clear the content (and then you'd have a Wildstar style situation on your hands). That's a big difference.

Realistically no game balances anything around the 1%, because you want to make games and most of the content accessible.

[Zilara]

You're welcome to watch Lucrezia's Savage A2 video. It's 10 minutes of nonstop tank damage. Give it a watch and lemme know if you think you'd have the MP management to heal it on Astro.

[RichardButte]

Yes but their point was in that quote was to say that once your whole group has enough gear, healer dps is not needed to clear. So sure your healers will have more dps, but so will your tanks and dps. They don't care if healers dps to make it go faster, but they're not making it required to clear, simply because that would severely limit the amount of players that can clear the content (and then you'd have a Wildstar style situation on your hands). That's a big difference.

Well, yeah, but that would imply that the content should be doubly easier once everyone is geared, right?

Eh, it is what it is, but it's not relevant to the discussion since we're still not seeing significant DPS increases from ASTs anyway (certainly not enough to justify their weaker heals).

[Kaizersan]

Also, you might want to read up on this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

Just pointing clear cut facts that people get better as they experience the same thing over and over this is no different.

[Cynfael]

...without feeling like they need to do more than what their class was designed for.

Every combat class in the game is designed to kill things, so I've never found the "not in my Job description" argument credible.

The question for roles aside from DPS is simply "When and how should I help the party kill things while making sure I'm taking care of my main responsibility?"

[Leiloni]

Well, yeah, but that would imply that the content should be doubly easier once everyone is geared, right?

Eh, it is what it is, but it's not relevant to the discussion since we're still not seeing significant DPS increases from ASTs anyway (certainly not enough to justify their weaker heals).

Well you have to remember though that the people completing Savage now, that can only clear it with healer dps, are doing it undergeared. They should otherwise not be in there. When you have better gear - the point at which the average player decides to go in and try Savage - then it'll be a different experience. Yes it'll be easier than it is now, but that's by design.

[RichardButte]

Just pointing clear cut facts that people get better as they experience the same thing over and over this is no different.

And I pointed out that this "clear fact" wasn't relevant to the discussion because the situations people described were that switching away from AST immediately made the run a great deal easier.

They didn't say, "I switched to WHM and then after the DPS finished getting their crap together, we cleared it." They described it as an IMMEDIATE change, not a gradual one.

Well you have to remember though that the people completing Savage now, that can only clear it with healer dps, are doing it undergeared. They should otherwise not be in there. When you have better gear - the point at which the average player decides to go in and try Savage - then it'll be a different experience. Yes it'll be easier than it is now, but that's by design.

Very true, but assuming everything will scale at roughly the same pace, AST is going to continue to be in dead last as a healer in the overall benefit they bring to a raid.