Unjust Kicking from Alexander T4

[Eidolon]

Snips.

A few things I would like to point out to you:


First thing first, your explanation was outright atrocious, and gives only the basest understanding to the mechanics. It does not include how to handle the mechanic, it does not include how specific roles handle mechanics (Tank soaking, heals standing far-south to make sure the butterflies are not in front of the boss, sword positioning, prey mechanic and how to handle it, where to bait orbs to, how to pick up the double prey mechanic, etc etc.)

Basically, your description, whcih took less than a minute, was so aweful that you would lead to more confusion than anything else. It also doesn't mention even a little of how to handle specific liberations.

It could take me upwards of 5-10 minutes to type a proper, role-appropriate description. -_- When they could just as easily look at a video. Though, to be fair - bosses of dungouns won't be this bad, and will be MUCH simpler. I think dungoun bosses are far more tolerable than Extreme Primal bosses, and for that reason - I think different approaches are necessary.

Edit-In #1:: I would like to add (thought about this after) that typing speed is also very much a thing. My typing rate is rediculously fast, although at times in terms of the English language it fails a little bit in being consise and to the point, or gramatically may be confusing. However, even still, someone typing the same thing as me can take upwards of two to three times as long to type it. On the flipside, someone with a faster typing rate than me might well be able to type it out in half the time (Not sure how fast people can go. I've seen Starcraft players man. Never doubt those fingers.)

For EX primals/raid, I think a video or text guide is mandatory. There's too much to describe and you are basically wasting everyone's time when you don't bother to watch a video. In the time it takes us to get in and explain it, one can initiate a vote kick of you. That basically should show that it's too much time to have to wait because one person was inconsiderate of 7 other people's time.

For dungouns/etc, I think explaining things is fine. In part, this is because I think there's a slight element of surprise to meeting the boss at the end of a dungoun, getting to encounter them... It's like the old-school battle screens, when they shatter at a boss, there was always a sort of anticipation and glee I got from seeing them spawn. XD

...

I do, however, feel there is something to address. I feel you very inconsiderate of other's feelings on time. I feel you to be very uncaring for other's perspective on what they find fun, favoring one specific party with a very clear bias. Why is it that someone who wants to get in, and get to something quicker should be treated with any less regard than someone who clearly doesn't care enough to do a little bit of legwork?

Effort. This is the defining factor between someone who has watched a video, and someone who just says "First time, new here, tell me what I need to know." One is a very entitled mindset, expecting things to be done for them within the client of the game because... Reasons? There's not even a good reason for it.

Now let me go further with it - why couldn't that same person, during the que time, go and watch the video during their que? Why couldnt' they be bothered to do something that would take them "No more than 5 minutes" (just like typing) to assist the party? Why is it ok to be self-considerate only if it is a learning and not anyone else?

In my opinion? We are all part of a team. But everyone having this mindset of 'gimme gimme' instead of 'how can I help the party' is where the issue comes from. People like myself will explain things - bujt really. Please come, try to understand that the same word - arrogance - can be used to define someone who expects and explanation without doing anything themselves (And sometimes moreso)

The same people think they don't /need/ a video, because they are skilled [I guess?] enough to get by with a text description (Inflated sense of one's own abilities) and this often proves wrong.

The same people think they don't /need/ to be told anything and lead to a wipe (Same definition as above)

The same people think they deserve to have things hand delivered to them (inflated sense of one's own worth) because they are new/a special snowflake, and they shouldn't have to do anything.

To me, Arrogant is a perfect word to define someone who expects a text description to be handed to them if they're going to ask for one.

[Dracosavarian]

Snip

I'm only going to give you a very basic response, at best. Make of that what you will.


The examples I typed up were listed there as roughs. Note, in each example, the Comment was Basic Rundown:

I don't know how much more basic you can get, considering I wrote those up in this forum just for the idea of a very basic example. And don't get me wrong...that is a very rough example. In Ravana fights for example I go into much more detail, depending on what the party involved says. I try and be considerate of how much length people are willing to put up with.


That having been said. To wit, my opinion will not change. If an individual like me comes in who has watched a vid, doesn't remember everything, is told nothing even though I ask (Remember, Kinesthetic Learner) and a wipe is caused...that is most assuredly not my fault. An accident? Maybe, depends on the situation.

But the fault there lies on the group.

Again. Duty Finder. You are going to get people who say they are new and need advice on mechanics, or say they watched a vid but need touch ups or pointers or a refresh.

Don't want to waste time? Use Party Finder, form a party, and handle it that way.

Expecting your views and your ideals to be forced upon everyone, no matter how well intentioned, is the absolute height of arrogance.

People have free will for a reason.

Take care and be well.

[Eidolon]

Snip

Your arguement hinged on the idea that "It doesn't take long to explain the fight to new players"... and then you wrote something that was so basic that it would likely just lead to more confusion than anything else. Ultimately, the point of your post was "It doesn't take that long!" before it became "But its' basic and quick." - when in reality, you need to go into MUCH more detail for it to be even the LEAST bit wortwhile.


A complex encounter requires a concise explanation. A simple encounter can be a quick and rough explanation.

However, I will take pause. Your arguement has now changed from "not watching anything and being told" to "Watching a video and being told." which is what a lot of us were talkign about. I don't think anyone has issue with someone who watched a video and asks for any extra advice, because we can also have a reasonable conversation with a rough understand.

No one is going to blame you if you wipe as you learn. No one is going to be mad at you for what. What we were frustrated with, was the example you gave of the people who (Very often) enter into a dungoun/raid without EVER Looking at anything, and expect things to be HANDED OVER.

You keep trying to use Party Finder as an end-all be all, but let's be fair - if you want to go in blind, you can likewise use a party finder.

If someone chooses to kick you for not knowing what to do / being new? Sorry - that's the will of the majority, and it happens.

Expecting everyone to accept you and bend over backwards to accomodate everything about you, is the absolute pinnacle of a self-entitled arrogant party member that will ultimately prove to be more of a detriment than a benefit. It shows how lazy they are and how little they care for their comrades. All they care about is themselves, and attempting to thrust their ideals on 7 others is unrealistic.

People have free will for a reason.

[ThanMazus]

All they care about is themselves, and attempting to thrust their ideals on 7 others is unrealistic.

Said each side about the other.

[Kaedan]

Said each side about the other.

I think you might have to rethink your math:

8 people in a party. 1 person goes in completely blind and doesn't even ask any questions. That person is now inconveniencing 7 other people.

8 people in a party. 1 person goes in completely blind, wipes the group and still doesn't say anything. They are kicked. 1 person is now inconvenienced.

Except for maybe the first week of new content, you're almost never going to have a group with more than 1 or 2 players doing it for the first time. So no, it doesn't "go both ways".

[ThanMazus]

I think you might have to rethink your math:

8 people in a party. 1 person goes in completely blind and doesn't even ask any questions. That person is now inconveniencing 7 other people.

8 people in a party. 1 person goes in completely blind, wipes the group and still doesn't say anything. They are kicked. 1 person is now inconvenienced.

Except for maybe the first week of new content, you're almost never going to have a group with more than 1 or 2 players doing it for the first time. So no, it doesn't "go both ways".

I think you might have to rethink how many words you put in my mouth.

Every time a new fight comes out, this discussion comes up. The new people say "If you want an expert clear with no difficulties, use the PF", and the veterans say "if you want someone to explain the fight to you, use the PF".

"Watch a video before using the DF" vs "Why can't we ever just try things for ourselves?"

[Maxidelta]

You keep trying to use Party Finder as an end-all be all, but let's be fair - if you want to go in blind, you can likewise use a party finder.

You have no control over DF who you group with. Zero. All a person has to do is click a tick box and have the appropriate ilvl and progress. If you want control you can do that with a PF.

If someone chooses to kick you for not knowing what to do / being new? Sorry - that's the will of the majority, and it happens.

Pretty sure that's abusing the vote kick system, you can get reported and punished. There's no current option for "because they are new and I want to clear this now".