Proposed changes to Tank jobs

[R-Kine]

PLD and DRK could totally use a Buff.

PLD:
Make oaths free to cast.

Sword Oath: Maintains its auto attack buff + 10% critical chance to all actions.
Shield Swipe: Restores 100tp a hit.
Clemency: Increases Enmity and lower casting cost.
Divine Veil: Make it proc off Clemency AND give PLD the shield effect too.

DRK:
Make Darkside and Grit Casts free.

Dark Arts: Half the MP cost OR make each use gives 2-3 stacks.
Blood Weapon: Usable under Grit.
Dark Mind: 30% magic defense. Turns to 30% all damage taken under Dark Arts.
Delirium: Change INT down to literally anything else.
Plunge: Restores MP.
Shadow Wall: 40% DMG taken.
Dark Dance: 40% parry. Each Parry Recovers MP under Dark Arts.
Living Dead: Don't die if HP is above 30% after effect wears off.
Reprisal: Lower Recast to 20 seconds.

WAR:
Forsight: Make this useful.

[Faytte]

Snip

The Dark suggestions were ok until i got to dark mind. You want vengeance on a 60 second cooldown you can stack with your other buffs? Come on---really? That would put you ahead of paladins (EASILY) on mitigation against all damage sources while having better offense.

All tanks have 2 core cds for mitigation and one spammable debuff.
Paladin have rampart and sentinel (which gains 10% over other tanks)
Wars have IB and vengeance (which gains a better cd and update over other tanks. IB has a shorter uptime conversely and requires a gcd/timing, but can be up more often)
DRK has shadow and shadow wall (both base line) but also gain dark mind which has an incredibly short cd and is applicable against what seems to be about half the damage in alexander (in some fights, damn near all of it!).

Yes all tanks also have other cds that are more situational (Wars have reactive self healing, Darks have a very short cd high uptime parry and dodge enhancer, a reactive -10% damage taken via reprisal. Paladins have a number of largely, anti physical cds (keep in mind for every cd a paladin has, that is one less offense power or aoe they got ---paladins lack more than I think people tend to understand when it comes to offense choices).

30% 10 second uptime 1 minute cd vs 'all' ontop of a 20% and 30% you can alternate along side of it makes you better suited than anyone for tank busters no matter the damage type. Right now paladins are better suited for physical cause they can throw sheltron ontop of a cd--but when it comes to magic, darks are the clear victors already (dark mind + another cd, serving the same purpose).

[SpookyGhost]

PLD and DRK could totally use a Buff.

Sorry, what?

[Phoenicia]

PLD and DRK could totally use a Buff.

Sure, let's buff PLD DPS to match that of WAR. Hmm, while at it, let's slap a shield on WAR and DRK so they have the same mitigation of PLD. Let's remove pesky wrath and MP management resources and just give immunity CDs to WAR and DRK. I mean EVERYONE wants what the other one has, why not make all three the same? Problem solved!

[R-Kine]

Sure, let's buff PLD DPS to match that of WAR. Hmm, while at it, let's slap a shield on WAR and DRK so they have the same mitigation of PLD. Let's remove pesky wrath and MP management resources and just give immunity CDs to WAR and DRK. I mean EVERYONE wants what the other one has, why not make all three the same? Problem solved!

Don't take it too hard now.

[R-Kine]

The Dark suggestions were ok until i got to dark mind. You want vengeance on a 60 second cooldown you can stack with your other buffs? Come on---really? That would put you ahead of paladins (EASILY) on mitigation against all damage sources while having better offense.

Fair enough.

Sorry, what?

Good thing I explained what I meant in a spoiler right under that statement. Phew...

You gave PLD more damage and more mitigation. I'm not entirely sure... why... you think that's necessary.
PLD doesn't need anything changed. PLD is fine.

While I still think that Shield Oath is underwhelming. I can agree with those who think buffing it makes PLD too strong. Shield Swipe just Generating Enmity is still lack luster. I'd still like to see a TP or MP regen added to it.

I want to use Clemency more often, and I want it to proc Divine Veil. The one change I can't stress how much I think it needs to happen. Make Clemeny Proc Divine Veil.

[SpookyGhost]

Good thing I explained what I meant in a spoiler right under that statement. Phew...

You gave PLD more damage and more mitigation. I'm not entirely sure... why... you think that's necessary.

Shield Swipe also works perfectly fine for TP and the only time PLD has trouble with TP is when they're either:

1.) Off tanking (no way to regen TP outside of not attacking the boss or Bulwark/Sheltron + Covering the tank) or
2.) MTing a magic boss (nothing to block, therefore no shield swipes)

PLD doesn't need anything changed. PLD is fine.

[Faytte]

You gave PLD more damage and more mitigation. I'm not entirely sure... why... you think that's necessary.

Shield Swipe also works perfectly fine for TP and the only time PLD has trouble with TP is when they're either:

1.) Off tanking (no way to regen TP outside of not attacking the boss or Bulwark/Sheltron + Covering the tank) or
2.) MTing a magic boss (nothing to block, therefore no shield swipes)

PLD doesn't need anything changed. PLD is fine.

I'm taking it you havnt done much ravanah ex with competent dps. While tanking, you do the lowest dps of all tanks, which isnt an issue save that you are going to be constantly worried about threat unless you have a ninja (or bad dps). Most rav ex paladins can only do halone->halone->goring. Royal is a pipe dream.


Shield Swipe also is not tp management. Every time you hit the button, you gained back a whopping 10 tp. It costs less than what you regen--sure but its not free. It also tends to lead to your debuffs falling off, so generally not ideal. Want to regen tp? Throw out a flash--regen a full gcds worth of tp to throw into better combos.

Paladins aoe is a joke. OT damage is the weakest of the three. The shield and 2 of your cooldowns (the things you get in return for your low dps) are useless vs magic (meaning that, vs heavy magic, you basically enjoy all the paladin CONS and none of the Pros. Weird design). Yes we were great when everything was physical, but not that its not, you have to question why you have downsides that apply all the time and perks that apply only in some content.

Wars are currently far far better overall tanks, always solid, always working at full potency save for -one- cooldown. Excessive threat means they are free to switch betweens stances as needed. Great (best OT), and not lacking at all as an MT (equilibrium is an instant clemency without the ridicoulous cast time for instance).

Paladins have too many abilities that work well in dungeons that are basically useless in raids is kind of a key issue. Our aoe has built in blind, but no damage. Well the blind is 100% useless in raids. Pacification is useless in raids. The ability to chain stun? Useless in raids (save for slimes in a3?). Paladins were designed and still carry too many elements from early 2.0 and need to be rethought out. Massively over buffed ---no--no one is saying that. But in a world where drk and war have constant damage buffs, incredible threat and seem better suited for future content, Paladins are not in a great position.

Also--who thought a 3.0 sec cast on a tank ability was a great idea? I would understand if it didnt cost half your mana bar, but it does. It already has a limiter!

[SpookyGhost]

long post

I've done a lot of Ravana EX and I tank 99% of it in Deliverance with competent DPS + no NIN. If you're tanking it in ShO and losing threat... I've no idea what to tell you. Use STR accessories?

Flash is better for TP management, but also does literally 0 damage. One Shield Swipe every now and then will not murder your DPS considering that otherwise you are either doing no damage or you're running out of TP and doing no damage.

I also think PLD is a better OT than WAR. With PLD MT in SwO you are going to be doing Goring + Royal all the time since Halone is your least powerful attack, and when you are inevitably forced to use Halone your damage is going to plummet. Meanwhile WAR's best damage dealing combo is SE -> BB which will generate a lot of aggro on top of the buffs and triple Fell Cleave. Even if both are in tank stance, WAR's tank stance DPS is higher than PLD's so you'd still want WAR MT + PLD OT. The big problem PLD has is regenerating TP on fights that don't have much down time, specifically as OT and against magic bosses - if they got a way to get back TP as OT they'd be fine.

PLD's AOE advantage is that it doesn't cost TP and can be regenerated easily. It doesn't do damage, but you do have CoS which will do damage over time while you focus down specific adds with damaging combos. It's not like WAR just sits there spamming OP, you will lose all of your TP that way and Equilibrium won't save you. When I was first learning A2 I had many problems where I was out of TP because I kept using OP too much. DRK has great AOE afaik, but I've no idea how it actually works.

Chain stunning has also been useful since T5 and it's (potentially) going to be extremely useful in Savage A3.

PLD is in an extremely good place right now and no one will stop crying until it's absolutely perfect. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.