Proposed changes to Tank jobs

[Kosmos992k]

Blind (Pal/Drk) Should effect all mobs, but be nerfed to only affect auto attacks.
Paladin Only:
Shield Swipe should be off GCD, cost no tp, but with a CD of 5 seconds (and retain its requirement to be proced off a block). Remove pacification--this is largely useless anyways.

Agree with the Blind, I do not agree that pacification is useless, it's a good halfway house between a real stun and nothing. My biggest issue with both pacification and stun is that far too many things seem to be immune. Perhaps the %chance of pacification or stun could be scaled based on the difference in level with a base chance of something like 30-50% of achieving the stun or pacification. Pacification worked really well initially, but by level 50 in ARR it seemed that anything you'd want to use it on was immune to it. I need to pay more attention in HW content to see whether it's just as ineffective. The effect is a good one, it's just that SE has this habit of giving you something and then nerfing it into pointlessness. In this case by giving so many Boss and mini-boss enemies what amounts to immunity to it all.

I'm fairly sure pacification stops physical abilities that enemies are currently casting from going off. It doesn't interrupt combos, it increases enmity and it reduces our TP usage. I quite like it.

Indeed, but like stun, the more things that become immune to it's effects, the more pointless the skill, and hence the Paladin becomes. It there was a base chance of the pacification landing that scaled up/down based on the level difference between the player and the enemy, I think that would be better than simply giving so many things the ability to ignore our status attacks.

[Faytte]

Agree with the Blind, I do not agree that pacification is useless, it's a good halfway house between a real stun and nothing. My biggest issue with both pacification and stun is that far too many things seem to be immune. Perhaps the %chance of pacification or stun could be scaled based on the difference in level with a base chance of something like 30-50% of achieving the stun or pacification. Pacification worked really well initially, but by level 50 in ARR it seemed that anything you'd want to use it on was immune to it. I need to pay more attention in HW content to see whether it's just as ineffective. The effect is a good one, it's just that SE has this habit of giving you something and then nerfing it into pointlessness. In this case by giving so many Boss and mini-boss enemies what amounts to immunity to it all.

Let me explain why its bad. The special attacks on monsters that pacification stops are almost entirely cast time based wind ups with telegraphs. These abilities (while being casted) prevent monsters form auto attacking and are a joke to dodge as a tank. Effectively, if you are swiping a trash mob and its capable of such an attack--you are now going to take more damage. The big sword bros in vault the first time you were there? If you swipe them, they wont do their massive cleave which a snail could dodge, instead they will just pound on you more. As a result, its useless--because anything that you WOULD want to swipe is basically immune to it, and what you can results in you taking more damage.

If swipe remains GCD, I would love to see pacification replaced by a 10% increased chance to block for 6 seconds--but preferably, remove it all together and make the ability OGCD. It's too awkward atm, given its lower damage than 2 out of our 3 combo averages, and can cause things to fall off. The tp regen people tout is actually incredibly minor (10 per use). If you want significant tp back, you are better off throwing a flash into your combo, so you can use that tp for combo. The only times where it might be better is when you are actually so TP drained your option is shield swipe or nothing -and- the fight is nearing a close.

[Kosmos992k]

Let me explain why its bad. The special attacks on monsters that pacification stops are almost entirely cast time based wind ups with telegraphs. These abilities (while being casted) prevent monsters form auto attacking and are a joke to dodge as a tank. Effectively, if you are swiping a trash mob and its capable of such an attack--you are now going to take more damage.

Haven't been to the Vault yet, but I understand your point. I hadn't noticed shield swipe with pacification being something that resulted in more damage to me, but I will keep an eye on it.

If swipe remains GCD, I would love to see pacification replaced by a 10% increased chance to block for 6 seconds--but preferably, remove it all together and make the ability OGCD. It's too awkward atm, given its lower damage than 2 out of our 3 combo averages, and can cause things to fall off. The tp regen people tout is actually incredibly minor (10 per use). If you want significant tp back, you are better off throwing a flash into your combo, so you can use that tp for combo. The only times where it might be better is when you are actually so TP drained your option is shield swipe or nothing -and- the fight is nearing a close.

How about this, rather than making it a single target, it's a swipe, so make it a front cone AoE attack. Leave the skill the way it currently is in terms of on GCD with the same trigger for it, but make it a cone attack so tightly packed mobs all get hit by it. If that's deemed too 'good' then reduce the potency.

[Faytte]

Haven't been to the Vault yet, but I understand your point. I hadn't noticed shield swipe with pacification being something that resulted in more damage to me, but I will keep an eye on it.



How about this, rather than making it a single target, it's a swipe, so make it a front cone AoE attack. Leave the skill the way it currently is in terms of on GCD with the same trigger for it, but make it a cone attack so tightly packed mobs all get hit by it. If that's deemed too 'good' then reduce the potency.

That isnt bad---i would much more prefer it be balanced around single target personally, however if it was a aoe cone with 210 potency that required a trigger and had extra emnity I think no one would complain! It would give Paladins an aoe which many really want. Likely 210 would be nerfed down to something like 120 or 150. That would def be 'an option', and maybe the right one?

Actually I really like this.

[Jandor]

Let me explain why its bad. The special attacks on monsters that pacification stops are almost entirely cast time based wind ups with telegraphs. These abilities (while being casted) prevent monsters form auto attacking and are a joke to dodge as a tank. Effectively, if you are swiping a trash mob and its capable of such an attack--you are now going to take more damage. The big sword bros in vault the first time you were there? If you swipe them, they wont do their massive cleave which a snail could dodge, instead they will just pound on you more. As a result, its useless--because anything that you WOULD want to swipe is basically immune to it, and what you can results in you taking more damage.

You swipe as they charge up the attack, no auto attacks because they still do the full cast and then it fails to activate at the end.
Some enemies, like the horse dudes in the vault, don't focus solely on me. If they're pacified they're not aiming at the black mage forcing him to move around.

[Faytte]

You swipe as they charge up the attack, no auto attacks because they still do the full cast and then it fails to activate at the end.
Some enemies, like the horse dudes in the vault, don't focus solely on me. If they're pacified they're not aiming at the black mage forcing him to move around.

Theres no reason to do that though? Ok so--you swipe while they cast, it wont interrupt them. You did less damage than having kept up goring or done an RA. Its ok maybe for some aggro on a secondary target (which is mostly why I might use it, although in multi situations a flash is probably a better bet--and blind works in dungeons). Now if your argument is the attacks that they target onto the raid, those -tend- to also be avoidable by the party (i say -tend-. There are some that are not--however many of those are spells. Pacification wont stop spells----the horses and animals, knights etc however do not cast spells).

In a situation where your tanking two dudes and one runs away to pull off a special attack on a party member....I think thats fine? I mean--he wont hurt them that much, sharing damage isnt a bad idea, and it significantly reduces the damage your tanking. The mob will run away(or turn to target) then run back (if it ran away). All periods your not tanking damage. You can build on the other target, etc.

The horses in the vault are a pretty rare exception to the rule, however what I prefer to do (given there is a scene transition after each set of knights) is build threat/keep them stun locked until its pointless to do so (good dps should have them burned down by then). It's still a pretty fringe case to build an ability around. I would much rather have something useful much more often given the ability procs so often but generally is something you are safer to ignore pressing. Makes me sad really -.-

[Jandor]

Theres no reason to do that though? Ok so--you swipe while they cast, it wont interrupt them.

No, but it will cause the ability to fail to activate.
I need to check it more thoroughly but in a few vigil runs I've pacified enemies while they're charging a big telegraphed AoE, the cast has finished and... nothing, no ability, no damage, they just go back to regular attacks. I'm not saying it's amazing but if it stops telegraphed attacks mid-cast just like stun but it doesn't stack the same resistance as stun then I think even as a niche ability it has some merit.

I'm not opposed to changing it a bit though, don't get me wrong, it's a bit too niche at the moment. oGCD could work.

[Faytte]

Snip

If it does interupt (and I could be wrong) id rather it not--unless I hit it at the last second. AOEs on the ground are dummy proof to avoid, and the monster is not auto attacking during that time. Sure people have to move two steps, but it also means you can give your healer a chance to dps. All three healers (esp whms lately) can put up some really good numbers in party runs without endangering the tanks health at all---

Take less damage
Party deals more damage (after a brief reposition)?


oGCD alone would be fine--with some balance number changes.