o.O Overkill on the crafting Dumb down?

[Ferth]

I realize that they would have to work really hard to make a system that no one likes. But that doesn't mean that I won't raise a fuss if I dislike the direction something is going in.

And honestly I don't see any good reason for the oversimplification in the lower ranks. And it really is an extreme over simplification. In no way shape or form am I trying to get them to not change it at all... I just want them to tone down on how simple they make things.

[Davorok]

I think I understand what they are trying to do with the Crafting System.

Old System: Many (if not most) crafters just rank up to cap on Parts. They very rarely make finished items (cuz the recipes are convoluted, require rare items and/or multiple crafts) and when they do, most get NPC'd because there just isn't player demand for Gear.

New System: Materia will create a constant market for finished Gear and should jump start an actual Economy.
< Crafters make Finished Gear (while ranking up) >
< Adventurers create Materia (while ranking up) >
< Crafters make Materia Enhanced Gear (while ranking up) >
< Adventurers rank up on Materia-Enhanced Gear and need new higher rank gear >
< Crafters make higher ranked Finished Gear (while ranking up) >
< Adventurers create Higher Quality Materia (while ranking up) >
< Crafters make Higher Quality Materia Enhanced Gear (rank up) >
< Adventurers cap out, get bored, start a new Lvl 1 Class and need low rank gear >
<New (or old) crafters make low rank gear >
< etc., etc...>

Sounds like a good system to me. Let's just see how it works out but I'm sure it will get tweaked as time goes by.

[darkstarpoet1]

I think I understand what they are trying to do with the Crafting System.

Old System: Many (if not most) crafters just rank up to cap on Parts. They very rarely make finished items (cuz the recipes are convoluted, require rare items and/or multiple crafts) and when they do, most get NPC'd because there just isn't player demand for Gear.

New System: Materia will create a constant market for finished Gear and should jump start an actual Economy.
< Crafters make Finished Gear (while ranking up) >
< Adventurers create Materia (while ranking up) >
< Crafters make Materia Enhanced Gear (while ranking up) >
< Adventurers rank up on Materia-Enhanced Gear and need new higher rank gear >
< Crafters make higher ranked Finished Gear (while ranking up) >
< Adventurers create Higher Quality Materia (while ranking up) >
< Crafters make Higher Quality Materia Enhanced Gear (rank up) >
< Adventurers cap out, get bored, start a new Lvl 1 Class and need low rank gear >
<New (or old) crafters make low rank gear >
< etc., etc...>

Sounds like a good system to me. Let's just see how it works out but I'm sure it will get tweaked as time goes by.

ummm you don't know basic economics. if there is no market now you do not flood the market with more finished gear. yes, some will be taken out of the market due to being processed to materia and then stuck on other gear, but when you get higher ranks you are still going to rank up on the easiest gear to make. that is going to just make you complete making 300-400 pieces of finished gear per rank that stacks to 1 instead of 300-400 parts that stack to 99. in both cases you will be npcing most of the items once you are done.

just by changing which item you npc does not jump start an economy. yes, people may wind up getting 2-3 of an item instead of 1, but if people are crafting 100x as many it will not jump start anything.

[Arcell]

ummm you don't know basic economics. if there is no market now you do not flood the market with more finished gear. yes, some will be taken out of the market due to being processed to materia and then stuck on other gear, but when you get higher ranks you are still going to rank up on the easiest gear to make. that is going to just make you complete making 300-400 pieces of finished gear per rank that stacks to 1 instead of 300-400 parts that stack to 99. in both cases you will be npcing most of the items once you are done.

just by changing which item you npc does not jump start an economy. yes, people may wind up getting 2-3 of an item instead of 1, but if people are crafting 100x as many it will not jump start anything.

You think only some of it will be taken out due to materia? If you fail a 5th materia attachment you just lost 5 materia plus the gear, that's 6 pieces of gear effectively. Now consider people will be doing this for all types of equipment (all armor slots + accessories + weapons). Tons of gear will be taken out of the system every day simply by conversion and failed attachment.

People may rank up on the "easiest" gear to make but they will likely start to make and sell the best gear for materia and the best gear to slot materia into.

[Ferth]

I think that's an overestimation of how Materia will increase the demand on items. I'm going to wager that the time it takes to fully bond with an item is going to be significantly longer than the time it takes to craft one. Crafters making items to grind rank are still going to have tons of items that will be hard to move.

Furthermore we don't know the rate of loss or just how beneficial the stats from materia are going to be. If it's not worth the time and money it takes to make a 5 slotted item people aren't going to try for it. And more than likely they won't try it for low and mid ranked gear because they won't be using it long enough for it to matter.

I wouldn't be surprised if most people hoard bonded items and materia to use on end level gear. In which case the biggest demand will be for the more complicated items.

And as I said earlier, these changes are largely going to pass over the low level gear because players can pass through those levels in less than an hour, unless the low level gear can somehow turn into just amazing materia.

The changes will largely bypass the low ranks because they aren't changing the causes for the low demand and supply of low ranked gear in the first place.

P.S.

I've said it elsewhere, I may have said it in this post too, but I think aiming to release the materia system at the same time as releasing the crafting changes is a bad idea.

I'd much rather see SE release Materia, observe how it effects demand for items then change crafting to accommodate.

[darkstarpoet1]

You think only some of it will be taken out due to materia? If you fail a 5th materia attachment you just lost 5 materia plus the gear, that's 6 pieces of gear effectively. Now consider people will be doing this for all types of equipment (all armor slots + accessories + weapons). Tons of gear will be taken out of the system every day simply by conversion and failed attachment.

People may rank up on the "easiest" gear to make but they will likely start to make and sell the best gear for materia and the best gear to slot materia into.

do you think you will be able to level up a peice of gear to be 100% spiritbound as fast as i can make one finished item? if i make 5-6 for every 1 you buy and get bound then it is not going to assist the economy. it will put multiple times the amount of product and you will not be able level them fast enough to be able to be converted.

just like i said, yes, instead of having one velveteen robe red you may have 2-3 of them, but if people are grinding on that item and there's thousands of them being made it will still be the same thing. i do the same thing grinding parts. i put a stack of whatever i am grinding into the wards and let them sell, but the rest go to the npc. do you think people are going to make an alt just to hold their 300 robes? if so what do they do with the 300 of their next grind item?

[InuraBera]

I hope that it wont be a case of 'grinding' out items to Rank, and rather a case of making things because there IS a space in the market to exploit. As to the low level stuff - at least there will be some low level gear! You find more high level Crab Bows on the market than you find the Rank 6 one, and that just isn't right at all, particularly for a supposedly 'player driven' economy. When I'm struggling to find weapons at every Rank bar 50 for my Lancer it just isn't working.

Crafting should NOT be about making it to 50 so you can sell something, Gathering works a lot better already in that regard as from the moment you start gathering you are part of the market process, rather than an insignificant speck. Prices will still be based on making a profit from the materials you used to make it so the whole system works together, so items should also be less ridiculously priced for those who haven't been here a year.

Even if you just dump some up to sell for the day, that would be six or seven, compared to zero on the market. The reason there is 'no demand' is because people can't buy what doesn't exist no matter how much money they have. Plus, as I rank up instead of putting my old weapons on the market I will instead most likely convert them to Materia for my new ones. (I generally buy at least two to keep in good condition without breaks if I can find them)

[TheVedis]

do you think you will be able to level up a peice of gear to be 100% spiritbound as fast as i can make one finished item? if i make 5-6 for every 1 you buy and get bound then it is not going to assist the economy. it will put multiple times the amount of product and you will not be able level them fast enough to be able to be converted.

just like i said, yes, instead of having one velveteen robe red you may have 2-3 of them, but if people are grinding on that item and there's thousands of them being made it will still be the same thing. i do the same thing grinding parts. i put a stack of whatever i am grinding into the wards and let them sell, but the rest go to the npc. do you think people are going to make an alt just to hold their 300 robes? if so what do they do with the 300 of their next grind item?

its obvious people dont understand economy dark, might as well give up
tried to explain similar things to people earlier in this thread and they were totaly clueless thinking every item they made even if in the thousands would sell

[Kyana]

I hope that it wont be a case of 'grinding' out items to Rank, and rather a case of making things because there IS a space in the market to exploit demand.

Crafting should NOT be about making it to 50 so you can sell something,

I couldn't agree more to these two points.

Why can't they think of useful consumable items for every DoH every 5-10 ranks which could be used for grinding?
Bandages for Weaver, sharpening tools for Blacksmith, armor patches for Tanner,...
Maybe add special buff abilities you get for ranking up DoH which use such consumable items and can be equipped by your DoW/DoM.

[Amineri]

if there is no market now you do not flood the market with more finished gear. yes, some will be taken out of the market due to being processed to materia and then stuck on other gear, but when you get higher ranks you are still going to rank up on the easiest gear to make. that is going to just make you complete making 300-400 pieces of finished gear per rank that stacks to 1 instead of 300-400 parts that stack to 99. in both cases you will be npcing most of the items once you are done.

just by changing which item you npc does not jump start an economy. yes, people may wind up getting 2-3 of an item instead of 1, but if people are crafting 100x as many it will not jump start anything.

This is definitely an issue with the current recipe system. The recipes are highly unbalanced in terms of materials used and (rank of synth) vs (rank of item). This is one aspect of the recipe system that very much needs to change.

The synths you are talking about are represented by the 1 Yew Log ~> 4 Yew Lumber ~> 4 Yew Half Masks recipe chain. In this example, five synths generate four finished products. If each synth is 2 minutes (my usual benchmark, although faster for similar rank 'grind' recipes is possible), this results in 4 finished products every 10 minutes. There is no realistic way to think that 'attachment points' will be generated fast enough to convert finished items into materia at this rate.

Particularly in light of the proposed HQ changes, some of the output quantities may be (perhaps 'should' be?) adjusted downward. If every recipe requires at minimum 4 ingredients, and if every ingredient is produced one at a time, then four synths are needed to produce the ingredients for each finished item. This results in a minimum of five synths to generate 1 finished item, with a result of 1 finished item every 10 minutes of active crafting time. Thus crafters spend more time creating intermediate products and less time creating finished items

Side Note:

If this is so, why would SE be removing all the parts, since the long chains of parts such as : Iron Ore ~> Iron Nuggets ~> Iron Ingots ~> Iron Wire ~> Iron Rings ~> Iron Chain ~> Iron Sabatons ? The problem with these long chains is partly inventory clutter, and partly that they severely reduce the value of HQ gathered/dropped materials. Having such a recipe chain and then requiring HQ parts to create HQ item would then require (a) drops of HQ Iron Chain, or (b) allowing reasonable creation of HQ parts from NQ mats. Both have very negative repercussions.

Considering at least 7 item slots that could be converted (potentially more if jewelry is included), and supposing that that 1 hour of active play time would form enough attachment, that could convert 7 items into materia per hour, or slightly more than 1 finished item per 10 minutes.

Then we also have to consider the ratio of (players converting items to materia) to (players creating finished items). Every player can convert items to materia. SE told us that even crafters and gatherers can grow attachment with their actions. So maybe, just maybe, it's possible to tweak the system (both in terms of recipes and the rate that attachment forms) to be able consume all of the finished gear produced.

If this is to be so, expect to see recipes such as:

• 4 ore ~> 1 ingot
• 3 yarn ~> 1 cloth
• 1 log ~> 1 lumber
• 1 hide + 1 alumen ~> 1 leather

Also, expect to see the mask recipe change from

1 lumber ~> 1 mask

to something like

1 lumber + 1 leather + 1 cloth + 1 ingot ~> 1 mask

tl;dr Don't be surprised to see the 'simple' recipe go away, and don't be surprised to see finish item recipes require "process" ingredients. It's the only way (that I see) for SE to balance gear creation with gear consumption.