The argument"MCH/Bard have utility so their damage should be lower"

[Sessurea]

I wasn't one of the Bards. Tell them that.

Unless you think I somehow have control over every Bard, so my relative skill somehow means roulette is always feasible?

Because the ability of 3 random scrubs in df is any indication of what a bard is capable of.

[Chairman_Meow]

Keeping up with this topic, I've started to notice several very obnoxious patterns:

1) Those who claim that BRD/MCN are supposed to be a "support" class, keep repeating the same single line, "They support the party." Yet, they haven't offered any sort of actual math, data, comparisons or facts aside from the same stupid line: "They support the party." Yes, those who argue this sentiment, are bringing many facts, data, and comparisons that make this line flat out wrong.

They do support the party. Between 2.0 and 2.9 that's what Bards were for. They were a resource battery. Pre-HW (especially around 2.4 and before) ManaSong and ArmysPaeon were indispensable in a 8 man group. Healer out of mana? WHERE'S THAT MANASONG?? Nowadays everybody and their moms has MP/TP regen skills on top of fights with a million pauses.

I don't know what kind of math or data you're looking for. They regen MP and TP. You're telling me you NEED data on "Hey I need MP. Running out of mana. Pop that song"? I'm pretty sure it speaks for itself.

2) There hasn't been any valid reason as to why BRD and MCN are being accepted at low end DPS classes. Valid being the key word here, people. Offering MP/TP to a party member doesn't justify low end DPS. If so, why isn't NIN put into this same category? Various status effects don't count, either. Most, if not all, DPS jobs have access to these, as well. On top of the fact that most bosses are immune to a lot of these. They very arguments used to "justify" BRD/MCN low end DPS are present in every other DPS class in the game.

MCN just got the BRD treatment for no reason. Honestly I don't even know why they made MCN. It's basically a glorified BRD.

Arguing that other classes have buffs make them equal to BRDs is just absolutely asinine. Explained below.

If you were playing back when first coil was end game then you would know that BRDs were top picks in a group. I believe 3 BRDs and a caster was optimal DPS. They had to tone down BRD dps slightly for how much utility and damage they bring to the table. But that was fine. A BRD was still begrudgingly required in every party for their songs. However, since MP/TP slowly became a non-issue and can be easily managed by the player themselves BRDs and MCNs just got... phased out. Low DPS, unnecessary support skills, and now cast times...? Why have one in a party? I literally cleared all 4 turns of Alexander without using a single song. I could have done the same thing as [enter DPS class here] and pulled more DPS while being more beneficial to the party with DPS buffs.

NIN/DRG/MNK/...just about every class now has MP/TP regen and party buffs. You're right, why aren't they put into this same category? They should also suffer the DPS penalty (about 20%~25% decrease from what people say) for having so much utility, right? I mean... that's only fair. Maybe even add a 15% damage reduction while dancing edge and battle litany is up. Because everybody seems to be comparing them to BRD/MCN. What? You don't like the damage penalty? WEIRD. It's like I heard this exact same thing somewhere before. [/sarcasm]

3) Anti-BRD/MCN sentiments are boiling down to "I don't want it stronger" without any other arguments that stand to reason. Sure, those in favor of higher BRD/MCN DPS want it higher, but they are also bringing outlined reasoning, comparisons, facts/data, etc, that keep continuing to confound the opposition. Many of these arguments STILL haven't been addressed and countered with any sort of success.

Yes, this argument is getting tiresome. But that's because there hasn't been any valid reasons explained. Those against it are frustrated because their arguments are being shot down/countered in droves, which cause them to simply abandon the threads. Those in favor are getting frustrated because the same arguments (which have already been countered without rebuttal) are popping up every other page, leaving us with the same unanswered question. This question deserves an answer, and it isn't getting one.

There are PLENTY of reasoning out there. Of course, swallowed up by 500x more "MORE DPS PL0X" spam... but it's out there.

From what I see as of now... the devs don't know what they want BRD/MCNs to be. BRDs were originally a support. There's no denying that. Their MP/TP regen songs were nearly manditory for end game content. They took a hit to their DPS but their utility was just too good to kick them to the curb. However that's no longer the case. And for some strange fscking reason they introduced the MCN which is basically a BRD with a gun.

My proposed solution would be to make BRD/MCN to a full on DPS class. Their utility is just no longer needed (maybe they will in savage? who knows). Put their numbers up to par and perhaps give them a 5%~10% damage penalty for their mobility (instead of the current 20%~25%) and fix up WM/GB because the play-style is clunky as hell right now and just isn't optimal. oGCD procs are being wasted. Just as everyone else said... "if I wanted to play a caster I would have rolled a BLM.".

My secondary solution would be to make BRDs the full support and make MCN the physical ranged DPS. Take away what little MCN have in terms of support skills and give them to the BRD and give MCN some more dps skills in place of those taken away. Change Wardens Paeon into a physical version of Foe's Requiem or just add the physical version as an addition to Foe's effect (giving it 10% physical and magic damage). As of now if there are 0 casters in your party you have a useless song. A new song idea to replace Warden's (if we combine phys+magic into Foe's) would be to increase healing received by x%.

[Chairman_Meow]

Yep make it a zerg fest where you just spam 1 to kill boss. Hell, remove any mechanic that the boss has. Just take it back to FFXI where you just hit the mob til it dies where it stands.

So I see you fought Faust

[Leonus]

So I see you fought Faust

Faust was fun.

[Ryaz]

Faust is a good way to see where your dps stands against the rest of the party before you fight the real boss. :P

[Kayote]

Arguing that other classes have buffs make them equal to BRDs is just absolutely asinine. Explained below.

They had to tone down BRD dps slightly for how much utility and damage they bring to the table. But that was fine. A BRD was still begrudgingly required in every party for their songs. However, since MP/TP slowly became a non-issue and can be easily managed by the player themselves BRDs and MCNs just got... phased out. Low DPS, unnecessary support skills, and now cast times...?

You say its asinine, yet thats the very reason why they should have equal DPS. Demand isnt something to solely base class balance on. Thats like saying Hunters are always super popular so lets nerf them on those grounds alone.

NIN/DRG/MNK/...just about every class now has MP/TP regen and party buffs. You're right, why aren't they put into this same category? They should also suffer the DPS penalty (about 20%~25% decrease from what people say) for having so much utility, right? I mean... that's only fair. Maybe even add a 15% damage reduction while dancing edge and battle litany is up. Because everybody seems to be comparing them to BRD/MCN. What? You don't like the damage penalty? WEIRD. It's like I heard this exact same thing somewhere before.

So ... not asinine then? Im genuinely confused, lol.

From what I see as of now... the devs don't know what they want BRD/MCNs to be. BRDs were originally a support.

Exactly, reason number two BRD nerfs are not cool. Asinine or not, or even if BRD TP/MP regen is better, its only slightly in the grand scheme. Specially when you consider the stacked nerfs they get from using, and having them, while the rest get no penalties, insta-casts, and even part of their rotation. As you said, theyre awesome when players are progressing in new content, a safety net for when heals are stressed, or TP management fails. An issue, you yourself said is mostly non-existent now.

Bards havent been support since 1.0, if that. As I pointed out before, a support class, in a game with support roles, plays very differently and is MUCH more useful and helpful than BRD ever was. The BRD "support" we have today is a result of lazy conversion from the role-less horrible game design we had in 1.0.

My proposed solution would be to make BRD/MCN to a full on DPS class. Their utility is just no longer needed (maybe they will in savage? who knows).

Yes, definitely. Mostly because adding an entire new role to the game with proper skills to be of use is just impractical ATM. Not to mention the rebalancing of all the content so far. If BRD becomes a support id be fine with it so long as MCH gets his DPS. Those two classes are way to similar anyway.

[SendohJin]

I don't want to see them give up on WM and GB like some of these people want.

how is it okay that this is on two jobs?

Mudras aren't on 2 jobs.
Grease Lightning isn't on 2 jobs.
Astral Fire/Umbral Ice isn't on 2 jobs.
Wrath isn't on 2 jobs.

Aetherflow is kind of but one of them is a healer.

[Chairman_Meow]

You say its asinine, yet thats the very reason why they should have equal DPS. Demand isnt something to solely base class balance on. Thats like saying Hunters are always super popular so lets nerf them on those grounds alone.

It's asinine because it's not the same thing. People are comparing Apples (BRD skills) to Oranges (everything else) on the grounds that they're round (buffs) so they must be the same. If you read what Ramath said he argued that since NIN had Goad they have to put NIN into the support category.

The comparison doesn't work because they're not the same. BRD have a 3 second cast time, mana drain, and damage penalty. Everything else? Instant cast, little to no cost, and no penalty. The only thing they have in common is that they're categorized as buffs.

If people must make the comparison then BRD skills need to have no cast time, no upkeep cost (or very little), and no damage penalty. Just by using it BRDs make a huge sacrifice as opposed to "I think I'll use Goad now... yup done".

Which brings up to where the community is at now. The buffs BRD has is near worthless (as of current 3.01 content). Thus why the community is asking for either more powerful support or dps to make a difference. BRD/MCN right now is just a detriment to the party. If you get a second BRD/MCN in your party deep down you will go "crap..2 brd/mcns...". That shouldn't happen in any case. A party could have 3 dragoons and nobody would bat an eye. In fact they may even welcome it.

Edit: I see what you mean by that they should have the same DPS now... Yes they should have the same DPS. But the community argument is that BRD isnt a "Support". Since other classes have buffs they should also be a "support". Therefore BRD "support" doesn't exist. Which doesn't make sense because of what I said above. Plus the "support" skills the other classes get didn't even come until Ninja Patch + HW. People are calling out Battle Litany left and right like DRGs had it forever.

So ... not asinine then? Im genuinely confused, lol.

It was sarcasm. I should have put a [\sarcasm] tag.

[Leonus]

Am I missing something? New tp management tool for melees? There is invig, goad (can't use it on himself and 3 minute recast) and the new one mnks got? Is that cross classable or something?

As far as I knew, tp was only a non issue for melee because of constant breaks in fights for tp to regen and eating into invig time....

Some melee dps are saying that the tp struggle is still real with fcob level uptime.

[Infraction]

So you want the same damage as the bursty classes and mobility?

There is a ton of downtime on target for melee and casters.

You get the advantage of movement while continuing 100% uptime of you choose to, or if you don't have to move a lot you can stance up and do more damage. The near 100% uptime on a target more than makes up for the loss of damage you do to a target. If you guys had the same damage levels of these other classes you desire and kept your uptime on targets why bring a class that has to disengage and engage constantly.

It sure looks pretty when a dragoon or a black mage crits for a big number but nobody considers how much downtime they have in between those hits. Target dummy damage is very misleading, uptime on target accounts for a lot of the difference in potency in attacks.