The argument"MCH/Bard have utility so their damage should be lower"

[Ramath]

Keeping up with this topic, I've started to notice several very obnoxious patterns:

1) Those who claim that BRD/MCN are supposed to be a "support" class, keep repeating the same single line, "They support the party." Yet, they haven't offered any sort of actual math, data, comparisons or facts aside from the same stupid line: "They support the party." Yes, those who argue this sentiment, are bringing many facts, data, and comparisons that make this line flat out wrong.

2) There hasn't been any valid reason as to why BRD and MCN are being accepted at low end DPS classes. Valid being the key word here, people. Offering MP/TP to a party member doesn't justify low end DPS. If so, why isn't NIN put into this same category? Various status effects don't count, either. Most, if not all, DPS jobs have access to these, as well. On top of the fact that most bosses are immune to a lot of these. They very arguments used to "justify" BRD/MCN low end DPS are present in every other DPS class in the game.

3) Anti-BRD/MCN sentiments are boiling down to "I don't want it stronger" without any other arguments that stand to reason. Sure, those in favor of higher BRD/MCN DPS want it higher, but they are also bringing outlined reasoning, comparisons, facts/data, etc, that keep continuing to confound the opposition. Many of these arguments STILL haven't been addressed and countered with any sort of success.

Yes, this argument is getting tiresome. But that's because there hasn't been any valid reasons explained. Those against it are frustrated because their arguments are being shot down/countered in droves, which cause them to simply abandon the threads. Those in favor are getting frustrated because the same arguments (which have already been countered without rebuttal) are popping up every other page, leaving us with the same unanswered question. This question deserves an answer, and it isn't getting one.

[Odowla]

You know, at the start of Heavensward, everyone was like "just wait until Alexander, then we'll see" while condemning BRD/MCH because of low dummy DPS.

Now Alexander is out and I'm seeing BRD/MCH doing around 100 less than monks and dragoons and ninjas. This isnt super easy content, but it isnt hard either - but the classes are performing JUST FINE on high movement fights and fights with mechanics (see: Alexander)

One. Hundred. DPS. Less.
I don't think 100 DPS is worth causing a stink over. This gap may shrink as players get better - as I see it, BRD/MCH have their skillcaps raised from WM and GB being introduced, and everyone's like HOLY SHIT WHAT DO I DO THIS CLASS SUCKS

Seriously, I'm bursting and sustaining more than my DRG/NIN in my raid on Alex F4. My entire group goes "WTF IS THAT DAMAGE" when my Wildfire tick visibly chunks the boss.

They do the same when the Barrage Emperyeal Arrow hits the boss. I think the solution is to just look over how you're playing and fix it :X

[Ryaz]

I have no real problems with MCH since the buff to Gauss. I've been in Alex fights where I'm top dps. I've been second.

The only problem I have, as I said, is when people throw around "support class" because of "X" abilities while ignoring the support other jobs also bring. We all have utility to compliment each other. Except maybe BLMs... They may just be pew pew.

[Aiselia]

Those "support" abilities melee have ? Is part of their damage rotation.

So what you're saying is that their support skills that help themselves and potentially other members of the party are part of their rotation and therefore likely to have as much uptime as possible (in the case of cooldowns) or 100% uptime (in the case of debuffs like Disembowel) or are highly situational?

Foe's is situational on you having casters to damage. I ignore healers because those are also situational on nobody needing healing.
Ballad/Paeon are far more situational than "Less enmity" because less enmity can always help, whereas extra TP/MP is useless until people have been fighting long enough to get low.

So basically what you're saying is that melee classes are actually supporting themselves and potentially the party far more often than a Bard is?

Then why are Bards considered the support class?

[Rafaelhades]

That melee with AoE MP refresh is OP. Which class is that again? Did they "ninja" fix NIN's goad to also provide MP to the entire raid? Should level NIN then.

[RiceisNice]

That melee with AoE MP refresh is OP. Which class is that again? Did they "ninja" fix NIN's goad to also provide MP to the entire raid? Should level NIN then.

You don't even need MP unless your party is dying left and right. Heck, none of the fights atm necessitate TP regen either, except for maybe the tanks on floor 2. Unless they change the bosses to be punching bags in savage, you won't ever need TP regen.

[Aiselia]

That melee with AoE MP refresh is OP. Which class is that again? Did they "ninja" fix NIN's goad to also provide MP to the entire raid? Should level NIN then.

Why do they need to give something to an entire raid?

Your tanks won't need MP. Your physical DPS won't need MP. Your BLM/SMN if played properly won't need MP.

At best your healers might need MP eventually, late into the fight. And even then, they might not if people aren't just dying a bunch and wasting MP on revives.

So what does it matter if the song gives it to one person or 8?

[Durendel]

I believe that it really should be stated that this whole argument is kind of silly however Bards and mach damage is not lower then other classes due as much to there utility as stated before you already have built in mechanics to deal with this. Bard damage is reduced due to the fact of how much mobility they have they are the MOST mobile job in the game this makes dealing with mechanics while still doing optimal DPS considerably easier for them. If you think that a class can have that much mobility and still do damage on par with every other class then you would be sadly mistaken. Also do not try to state that WM is a reason to give them more damage as its not even being used as intended right now. As rotation wise you literally just turn it on to activate a few abilities then turn it off.

[Durendel]

The only class I may argue that needs to be a bit more in line with other classes DPS would be the machinist because gause barrel is used considerably more for them and should be up more for them if not all the time.

[Tsilyi]

Also do not try to state that WM is a reason to give them more damage as its not even being used as intended right now. As rotation wise you literally just turn it on to activate a few abilities then turn it off.

wat

The only class I may argue that needs to be a bit more in line with other classes DPS would be the machinist because gause barrel is used considerably more for them and should be up more for them if not all the time.

as someone who plays both jobs I feel like machinist is potentially even MORE mobile due to GB making 2nd/3rd part of the combo instant.