The argument"MCH/Bard have utility so their damage should be lower"

[Panasync]

Swapping adds that had to be spaced far apart, because while they are running to the adds they cannot DPS and thus have 0 DPS.

Edit: Boss has a giant AOE move at it's feet. Bard scoots back, keeping maximum DPS alll the same. Melee goes to 0 DPS to run out of the circle, other ranged DPS goes to 0 because they had to stop casting to move.

AOE on the boss circle on the boss near the side or back, melee DPS have to swerve and lose positionals. AOE on a ranged, like Black mage, they must move, cancel cast, lose DPS.

Bard side strafes, DPS keeps rolling out.

Bards weapon damage is so low that the only way to compete is to have 100% uptime, it's not an either or. That's why other jobs have such high weapon damage and ability potency. To makeup for small amounts of time where they cannot hit, but to be honest you're greatly over exaggerating how much time you're off of any enemy at any given time in any of the fights in this game.

EDIT: You are also conveniently forgetting that fights have ranged mechanics to deal with, most of the time the ranged mechanics are far more intensive than running out of a boss AoE and back in again. Add to this the extra mechanics that get shoved onto Bard.

[Panasync]

The Boss is over there, the adds are over here....the melee has to run from one to the other then back again....

How do you not see this?

What melee dps job does not have a gap closer?

[Krissey]

What melee dps job does not have a gap closer?

I believe Monks do not. Also, Shukuchi has around 45 second CD iirc so it isn't Spammable. Only Dragoon has enough gap closer for it to make little difference, but it's enough difference still to lose out on DPS. Not sure what the range on Shoulder Tackle is, but it's probably not amazing.

[Panasync]

I believe Monks do not. Also, Shukuchi has around 45 second CD iirc so it isn't Spammable. Only Dragoon has enough gap closer for it to make little difference, but it's enough difference still to lose out on DPS. Not sure what the range on Shoulder Tackle is, but it's probably not amazing.

You're right shoulder tackle isn't a gap closer... There is no fight in this game where you are running back and forth off of the boss w/o being able to hit anything for extended periods of time. The closest I can think of is chrysalis. Dragoons have a couple gap closers.

[Viviza]

No it's not irrelevant, it's the main point.

It's irrelevant because these hypothetical numbers don't play out in practice. If they did, you would see mathamagicians work out the absolute best DPS potential for every job, and you would see figures close to this in every fight. You could make an ironclad statement about the damage potential of every job.

But it doesn't work this way. Every fight has unique mechanics and issues for every job. If monks lose stacks it hurts them a lot. Fights like ravana are fantastic for jobs like BLM because of the dedicated burn phases and their ability to disregard his reflection shields. But on fights with lots of movement BLM suffer terribly. These are the numbers that matter, and they vary wildly on an encounter-by-encounter basis.

Potential does have it's merits though.

Only in the very most general sense of getting a feel for what you are capable of doing, for purposes of improving a rotation for example. My point is that it's the figures in the fights that matter, because the point is to kill internet dragons, not produce numbers.

[RiceisNice]

You're right shoulder tackle isn't a gap closer... There is no fight in this game where you are running back and forth off of the boss w/o being able to hit anything for extended periods of time. The closest I can think of is chrysalis. Dragoons have a couple gap closers.

Shoulder tackle has no range requirement either, its more reliable to close in on enemies.

And even then, monks now have meditation with forbidden chakra to reduce their damage loss from downtimes...and both DRG and NINs have ranged abilties. While not feasible or TP friendly, it's certainly something for them so they aren't doing 0 dps during those times (which as of recent content and even FCoB, are very few)

But it doesn't work this way. Every fight has unique mechanics and issues for every job. If monks lose stacks it hurts them a lot. Fights like ravana are fantastic for jobs like BLM because of the dedicated burn phases and their ability to disregard his reflection shields. But on fights with lots of movement BLM suffer terribly. These are the numbers that matter, and they vary wildly on an encounter-by-encounter basis..

Which is why monks have gotten more tools to help offset their shortcomings. If the enemy is going to bugger off to the point where your GL will fall off (and this usually requires a circumstance where ranged also has no uptime on it), they can do tornado kick. If its somewhere inbetween where the boss does come back in time for a GCD, you could just form shift to coeurl and immediately snap punch or demolish and refresh it. Nor has the maintenance of GL ever stopped monks from pulling high numbers (with the except of t9, but fuck t9)

[Leonus]

What melee dps job does not have a gap closer?

Mnk has 1, nin being weaved into their rotation for more dps.

Nin had 1, does no damage.

DRG had 2, 3 if you'received ballsy/good. Spineshatter dive 40 second recast, dragonfire dive which is ... I'd... like 120 seconds? These two are a part of the rotation.( saved if you know a disconnect is coming relatively soon). Elusive jump is a back flip, and if not aimed properly, puts you gutter away or can put you in the death zone outside of the arena.

[Viviza]

Which is why monks have gotten more tools to help offset their shortcomings.

All true. And monks do great DPS for it. But I think we're off topic now.

Edit: Also I think I'm out of unique points to add to the discussion.

[RiceisNice]

All true. And monks do great DPS for it. But I think we're off topic now.

Edit: Also I think I'm out of unique points to add to the discussion.

Basically what I'm getting at is, downtime (or bard's uptime) is not as big as people are making it out to be. At least not in content where it matters (current content)

[Kayote]

Mantra - Still has its times when its much more useful. Large AoE heals for one. Bard is useless there. Doesnt even matter how much MP heals have. Bards is preventative, Monk can save lives.

Dragon kick, Dancing Edge... Oh, so buffs that help a portion of the DPS AND is part of dps rotation? Youre right, Bards have it great here, we have the priviledge of stopping ours for 3 seconds and using up the same precious resource used with other buffs. Yeah we deserve double nerfs. /sarcasm

Goad - would be nice to know the effectiveness of each. You know, besides the fact that its instant, doesnt lower DPS, and he can still hit DE while Bards still cant FR. Yeah totally deserved those nerfs.

Battle littany - Still a buff to DPS . Entire group, no penalties. Better than FR.

Disembowel - And again FR is not part of Bard rotation, doesnt even buff the Bard, so congrats.

Virus, and BRDS songs are usually saved IN CASE some class needs more resources. Different buffs for different situations. Who'da thunk!

I mean, these are all nice but...

And like Panasync said already, theyre mostly there for the inexperienced, in case we screw up groups doing new content. After that we're just bad DPS. Progression is a tiny percentage of the population in all MMOs. Case in point, our "totally OP" in demand songs werent worth squat when we were getting kicked for low DPS. There could have been a bot there doing nothing against a DPS check... "too bad, $@#& your songs, well call you when we suck at mechanics."

"Dont try and pretend" its not true.

This post made me laugh. It was amazing.

Im sure it did. Thats the beauty of this whole mess. BRDs are the ones there to save your ass when you know youre failing, so you think we're some godsend. Most other buffs, happen passively, you dont even notice how much they help when used properly. You wipe from TP/MP because you took to long, everyone thinks "need Bard." No one bothers to think if DPS was using there buffs effectively. Yet somehow we get screwed for both using it, and just having it, wether or not our group sucks enough to need them.

BRDs are the worse"support" I have ever played, and the worst DPS in the game. Its complete b/s, make a support role, or buff our DPS. Nerf our songs if itd make the envious kids happier. If our songs were OP, then its our songs that shouldve gotten nerfed, not DPS. Its still a Bard so long as it sings...