All this BLM negativity. ...

[Jeckyl_Tesla]

If you say so. All I say is try the class out for yourself and compare with the well known bug lists. A number of the top end BLM players have the same concerns about the class. Right now in an end game progression sense, if you need a caster, go SMN. If you can go 3x Melee, take a third Melee.

When the non-easy mode content gets implemented, you'll see that

I'm not saying there isn't QoL and bugs that need to be fixed. No there's quite a few, I know the delay is a pain and the whole aspect could be made smoother. As for a DPS buff, they don't need that, they already do enough if they play well. When harder content comes out that still punishes BLM and BLMs struggle on then, then I'm conceed to your point. At the moment, BLMs pull fine DPS and just have to learn to fights in order to play correctly. The average player, however, does not know how to do this. Hence why you don't buff it.

Also, people complaining about small adds. SMNs are shit on them too. Not enough HP to cast DoTs, a waste to use Ruin I/II, you can try to painflare, but that's just wasting DPS and you can use Dreadwyrm Trance, but that's just silly. Adds are melee and ranged physical areas, let them deal with it.

[HaroldSaxon]

I'm not saying there isn't QoL and bugs that need to be fixed. No there's quite a few, I know the delay is a pain and the whole aspect could be made smoother. As for a DPS buff, they don't need that, they already do enough if they play well. When harder content comes out that still punishes BLM and BLMs struggle on then, then I'm conceed to your point. At the moment, BLMs pull fine DPS and just have to learn to fights in order to play correctly. The average player, however, does not know how to do this. Hence why you don't buff it.

Also, people complaining about small adds. SMNs are shit on them too. Not enough HP to cast DoTs, a waste to use Ruin I/II, you can try to painflare, but that's just wasting DPS and you can use Dreadwyrm Trance, but that's just silly. Adds are melee and ranged physical areas, let them deal with it.

As i've said, give me a reason why in an optimal raid group there is a reason to take a BLM, when compared to a second melee or a SMN?

I agree with the nerf to AOE, but the single target damage was not buffed enough to compensate due to the losses in DPS that I outlined in my earlier post. If we had Fey Glow back to what it was and Ley Lines scaled of Spellspeed, we'd certainly be up there again, and only QoL is needed.

But then you have the issue with BLM's scaling the least from Int and WD. So we'll be further behind.

Sure, I can carry on with BLM and optimise and clear stuff. But why bother when I can just switch to monk/dragoon/ninja and do more dps and provide more utility to the party? Or a SMN and have better AOE/Better effective single target. And "Fine" is subjective. Take a look at the players that say there are issues, and then take a look at Puro's (RIP) spreadsheet from 2.x. I don't think its right for any class to be sub-optimal.

And I agree, small HP adds aren't great for SMN's either. At least they don't have a 3 second cast time - plus they can sacrifice mana and use instant cast Ruin 2, they are still better for large HP adds (Multi-DoT), and still better with effective single target because you WILL have to move at some point. Furthermore, if the boss can still be hit, at the very least they still have their DoT's on the boss and resort to Ruin 2 - whereas a BLM can just scathe, which is laughable.

[Underlord]

I've run many things, including Alex. From what im reading here, people either can adapt, or cannot n switched to smn. Ill have enochian up majority of any instances im in. Imo its all about how much u pay attn to timers and mechanics. Granted ill just cast ley lines n enochian and a aoe or line of attack is on me. Simple. I sidestep just out of it and continue. Sounds like some blms are constantly running all over the place. If a small attack is incoming.... manawall/shields. And if add is about to die, switch to a new on before u cast. I do agree blm need QoL changes? Yes.... but to pick some classes over blm? No.

[Jeckyl_Tesla]

Snip.

From what you said to begin with, that mindset will always, always be prevalent. There will always be come classes that simply will pull ahead and will be favored.
That's not particularly the classes fault, but the mindset of the players fault.

As to why you would want a BLM over a SMN, because on some fights that have very little movement aspects, a BLM will outDPS the SMN, even with the current changes. The DPS swings differently however when there are phases with heavy movements. SMNs and BLKs scale completely differently too, and alongside with everything else, excel at different points too. It used to be BLM used to excel at AoE and ST when they stood still and SMN did more ST dmg when it was movement heavy. Now, it's the same with ST but the AoE has switched, which can be a pain, I admit.

As I said, it's too early to see how BLMs truly fare. Let Savage Alex come out, and see how the fights truly are there. If there are insane and glaring problems, they will be fixed. But for the current fights in the game, apart from a few QoL tweaks, BLM dmg is parsing fine and can pull ahead on some areas.

As for optimizing and having to do more to get ahead, welcome to SMN in ARR. Look, if you are not enjoying having to put in a lot of effort into a class to get the most out of it, then by all means, there are other classes out there that may server you better. Let's take a look at DRG pre-buff. Even an average DRG could pull decent DPS, but the truly good ones excelled. And now? Now that it became more complicated, the difference between bad DRGs and good DRGs are even more glaring. If anything it's the same with many of the classes now and BLM is one of them.

I don't think BLM is dead or in a horrible state, like some BLM users claim. I think all classes that need QoL tweaks and bug fixes need to have them to smooth out the experience in playing those classes. But I think that BLM takes a lot more skill and forethought now than it did before.

As for small adds, if the boss is still DPSable, then the BLM and SMN are in the same point really. Let the melee kill the adds and just focus the boss, which I'm guessing is where a BLM will gain a decent DPS boost. Ruin II one of the only choices and but it hits like a wet mop. With adds with more HP, yes, SMN burst is insane right now, and with multi target fights with high HP adds, SMN will always pull ahead in DPS. But that was even the same back in ARR.

Also: If that was your friend who messaged me last night, with horrible English I may add, and decided to just spew random shit at my FC and told me his BLM in his FC does 1.4k in Alex T4 and that I should fuck off, tell him that as much as I appreciate his comments (as much of it as I could decipher), I think his friend is completely capable of having his own arguments without his input.

If it wasn't someone you knew, then I apologize for the assumption.

[Snugglebutt]

I agree with the OP and not those opposed to the OP. For those opposed to the OP's position go try playing BRD or MCH and compare it with BLM. Unlike BLM which I have never seen anyone criticize since 3.0 during runs, no insults about their DPS just because of the class, no one in party chat complaining when is more than one of them in group and no kicks from parties or blocked from joining them. The only thing I have seen is out of game on these forums some BLM asking for QoL changes, any that have said it is not just QoL changes need to go play a class that has actual non-QOL problems such as BRD/MCH which should give them a reality check on what they are saying.

[Waliel]

I CAN'T STOP CASTING THE BOOM BECAUSE I CAN CAST THE BOOM.

BOOM >>> ANY MECHANICS

Either BLM ST is uber, or BLM should be the one dropping their ST while the other dps continue to rape the boss, you can't have it both ways. God forbid you lose enochain by using a B3 and some Scathes to smash down the adds while the real ST dps stay on boss.

So you would rather totally screw your damage and rotations to save that offtank one GCD to finish off one add, compared to continuing to damage the boss because no one needs your help with the adds. What you're asking here is the same as telling MNK to only use Bootshine only until their Greased drops.

After my static's first try on Ravana ever, the offtank said I should not bother with the Spirit Ganas, as he can solo a good chunk of them. Moons are actually something I can get a cast or two off. In Alexander, I can kill one of the random adds that spawn when no one else is doing anything to them. The add dying midcast is just way too risky for all of your timers.

As i've said, give me a reason why in an optimal raid group there is a reason to take a BLM, when compared to a second melee or a SMN?

Good thing my static has never cared about that. We've been going with melee, BRD, SMN, BLM since SCoB.

[HaroldSaxon]

From what you said to begin with, that mindset will always, always be prevalent. There will always be come classes that simply will pull ahead and will be favored.
That's not particularly the classes fault, but the mindset of the players fault.

It depends on the player. I come from a testing and balance background, and thus like things to be balanced. Just like I advocated a number of changes to SMN last patch.

As to why you would want a BLM over a SMN, because on some fights that have very little movement aspects, a BLM will outDPS the SMN, even with the current changes. The DPS swings differently however when there are phases with heavy movements. SMNs and BLKs scale completely differently too, and alongside with everything else, excel at different points too. It used to be BLM used to excel at AoE and ST when they stood still and SMN did more ST dmg when it was movement heavy. Now, it's the same with ST but the AoE has switched, which can be a pain, I admit.

Yet, the difference in DPS even if the BLM can turret the whole fight isn't much, and even if the BLM can do that all fight with no mechanics, you are better off bringing another melee. Case in point; T8.

As I said, it's too early to see how BLMs truly fare. Let Savage Alex come out, and see how the fights truly are there. If there are insane and glaring problems, they will be fixed. But for the current fights in the game, apart from a few QoL tweaks, BLM dmg is parsing fine and can pull ahead on some areas.

It isn't too early, that is the point. We've had plenty of experience in raids and with the current rotation for all the classes to have a good idea where they are at. Hell, just look at the latest Alexander, where SMN are just better. Sure, easy content, but Savage will be similar fights with harder/more mechanics and checks.

As for optimizing and having to do more to get ahead, welcome to SMN in ARR. Look, if you are not enjoying having to put in a lot of effort into a class to get the most out of it, then by all means, there are other classes out there that may server you better. Let's take a look at DRG pre-buff. Even an average DRG could pull decent DPS, but the truly good ones excelled. And now? Now that it became more complicated, the difference between bad DRGs and good DRGs are even more glaring. If anything it's the same with many of the classes now and BLM is one of them.

That is still absolutely no excuse for a class being sub optimal. Its not about BLM being made more complicated, that isn't the issue whatsoever. The issue is the QoL changes, and the fact that for single target where BLM's are able to turret short of there being a cheese anti physical mechanic, a melee is just flat out better. Sure, people can do a with a bard, a ninja and a dragoon then go "wow look at how big my dps is, blm is fine", yet have lower group dps compared better composed groups

I don't think BLM is dead or in a horrible state, like some BLM users claim. I think all classes that need QoL tweaks and bug fixes need to have them to smooth out the experience in playing those classes. But I think that BLM takes a lot more skill and forethought now than it did before.

And yet, an equally skilled player with equal gear on other classes that can replace a BLM will just provide more to the raid - either by pulling more DPS in a fight and in some cases with more utility.

As for small adds, if the boss is still DPSable, then the BLM and SMN are in the same point really. Let the melee kill the adds and just focus the boss, which I'm guessing is where a BLM will gain a decent DPS boost. Ruin II one of the only choices and but it hits like a wet mop. With adds with more HP, yes, SMN burst is insane right now, and with multi target fights with high HP adds, SMN will always pull ahead in DPS. But that was even the same back in ARR.

Both aren't great, but SMN will still do more if the boss is targeting.

Also: If that was your friend who messaged me last night, with horrible English I may add, and decided to just spew random shit at my FC and told me his BLM in his FC does 1.4k in Alex T4 and that I should fuck off, tell him that as much as I appreciate his comments (as much of it as I could decipher), I think his friend is completely capable of having his own arguments without his input.

If it wasn't someone you knew, then I apologize for the assumption.

I've absolutely no idea who you are talking about; if whomever in the same FC as me, send me a screenshot.

[Snugglebutt]

As i've said, give me a reason why in an optimal raid group there is a reason to take a BLM, when compared to a second melee or a SMN?

You can say such as much as you want but there is a big difference between your hypothetical scenario and the reality in game in which you don't regularly see BLM's being insulted daily for the class they play instead of their ability to play it, you don't regularly see people in group chat insulting BLM's about their DPS being bad because the class outputs a shit load of DPS by non-bad players, you don't see BLM's constantly auto-kicked or locked out of content just for being a BLM and you don't see people in the group whining when have more than one BLM in the group since they all have great DPS potential depending on player ability.

BLM's in my experience are not suffering from what your hypothetical situation claims in game unlike BRD's and MCH are. Your hypothetical situation on BLM becomes irrelevant because it is not reflected as happening in game, if ever it does happen it would be a very rare occurrence while on the other hand for BRD and MCH it is a common occurrence. It actually annoys me when people claim BLM is broken or in a bad position because to me it's fallacy and most of the issues with BLM are simple QoL issues or some minor bug fixes. It may be true SMN is currently becoming popular but BLM players are not really suffering much if at all from it from what I have seen. I have only seen one PF group asking for SMN instead of BLM since 3.0 came out and that was because they already had a BLM in the group.

SE should fix any bugs with the skills, perhaps somewhere down the line address some QoL issues but they should do that with every class in general over time, I see nothing requiring urgent attention on BLM's other than the bug fixes, QoL on BLM can wait till other classes with bigger issues are dealt with.

[StouterTaru]

So you would rather totally screw your damage and rotations to save that offtank one GCD to finish off one add, compared to continuing to damage the boss because no one needs your help with the adds.

No I wouldn't totally screw my damage and rotations. I would have my damage lowered slightly by one less Fire in my rotation, or a Fire instead of a Fire IV, or a Fire II swift Flare before getting back into rotation.

Weak adds are highly dependent on behavior, but almost always dealt with by BLM as well/better than anyone else.

• Spawn and stay at range - my department, gonna save a lot more than 1 GCD of the OT
• Spawn at range and must die asap - me again
• Spawn by boss - AoE on boss
• Spawn and charge but not essential to kill in under 5 seconds - stack on boss if possible and AoE

[Jeckyl_Tesla]

It depends on the player. I come from a testing and balance background, and thus like things to be balanced. Just like I advocated a number of changes to SMN last patch.

Don't doubt that, I just remember other games where I've played in where even though the DPS is the same, the stigma of a class decides whether it would come to raids or not. How the community of an MMO works can easily be a separate study in social studies (if I'm not mistaken, it actually is.)


I've seen that happen a few times in this game too.

Yet, the difference in DPS even if the BLM can turret the whole fight isn't much, and even if the BLM can do that all fight with no mechanics, you are better off bringing another melee. Case in point; T8.

If we are talking in a pure hypothetical stance of having two skilled players, in a complete simulation where everyone else does the mechanics, then I'll give you a leg to stand there. Though when I was doing T8, our BLM was the one doing some of the mechanics along with our BRD and he managed to pull decent DPS. I can only imagine what he'd be if he had to turret. We had to SMN on that fight, so I cannot attest too much to their DPS on that one and only gather it via hearsay.

It isn't too early, that is the point. We've had plenty of experience in raids and with the current rotation for all the classes to have a good idea where they are at. Hell, just look at the latest Alexander, where SMN are just better. Sure, easy content, but Savage will be similar fights with harder/more mechanics and checks.

From what we can see right now, you are correct. Though we have no information on how different the savage fights will be. I mean, if they're just stronger version of what they are now, I may have to find myself sorely disappointed. And then I'd agree to your point. Though I wouldn't want to make assumptions such as that due to easy content, and from what I've see, nor do SE.

That is still absolutely no excuse for a class being sub optimal. Its not about BLM being made more complicated, that isn't the issue whatsoever. The issue is the QoL changes, and the fact that for single target where BLM's are able to turret short of there being a cheese anti physical mechanic, a melee is just flat out better. Sure, people can do a with a bard, a ninja and a dragoon then go "wow look at how big my dps is, blm is fine", yet have lower group dps compared better composed groups

I think if the QoL changes come in and a few of the bugs have been smoothed out, that would be enough to make BLM more attractive for such roles. Right now, there are some annoying ranged mechanics and melee do have it somewhat better than ranged on most fights, but I will stick to my point that instead of outright buffing the BLM like some people want, all it would need are a few changes. Nothing huge like some people genuinely want.

The reason why you can't directly buff BLM, is because they did that back in ARR and then when they started gearing up into the last levels, they were insanely good. IF we look at how gearing is going right now, we can expect another set from Alexander and our AF2 set from esoterics. That could very well make up for some very nice stat mixups and as a whole in turn, change how a lot of classes play as a whole.

And yet, an equally skilled player with equal gear on other classes that can replace a BLM will just provide more to the raid - either by pulling more DPS in a fight and in some cases with more utility.

Utility is one thing, but that's a very hypothetical situation. Even in top end, world first statics, there are always some players who are better than the others. Not by a huge margin, but enough to make a difference. As someone said before, theory is great, but the reality in practice is a completely different world.

I will admit that BLM is lacking in a lot of utility. Especially in this expansion. In ARR, quite a few classes lacked utility, but now, everyone but the BLM seems to have something.

Both aren't great, but SMN will still do more if the boss is targeting.

For big adds, yes. For small adds, it's a waste of Aetherflow, mana and time to do it. Though, if both were forced to turn off the boss, then yes, the SMN would gain more due to DoTs ticking.

I've absolutely no idea who you are talking about; if whomever in the same FC as me, send me a screenshot.

His name started with Wurs or something along those lines. I'll see if I can check when I get online tonight and let you know.

EDIT: Found his name, and he is indeed in your FC. I don't have a screenshot, but I'll tell you his name. I'll throw you a message online tonight.