Ways to fix BRD and MCH in a realistic way

[Musashidon]

Resource recovery is not a direct DPS boost. You'd have to give BRD +Attack, +Crit and +Determination before you can even make that claim. This said, Paeon and Ballad are essentially raid cooldowns, which is why they're a nice thing to have but are not definitive of BRD gameplay. They're basically our version of Bloodlust/Heroism, except Blizzard and the WoW's playerbase haven't convinced themselves that Shaman DPS needs to be below the tanks to justify them having those buffs.

of course it is a direct boost. without the resource recovery everything stops, dps and heals. unless you go into these fight in bis (which has been showed earlier in the thread) heals will run out of mp and need a ballad and dps/tanks will need tp recovered. without this resource recovery damage drops tremendously.

And BRD DPS does matter because if they're in the group, their contribution to DPS checks will determine whether you see the next phase or wipe.
Mobility is precipitated by the fact BRD is built around instants and off-GCD skills. It's what allows them to keep up the damage despite dealing less damage per skill, since they can keep attacking while everyone else is moving in and out of AoEs.

bard dps matter in the base fact of are they doing the bare minimum. yes for all current content that is currently out bards can do the bare minimum.

bards can do the same damage moving or not moving. we will use blackmage as the example they would have no dps if movement was as required as everyone seems to believe.

yes the instant casts allow bard to keep dpsing where blackmages can't, but wm is not meant to be used 100% of the time which once again everyone is trying to say. the down time of aoes is not very large at all.

mobility has little impact on them. you know when aoes are coming it's all scripted.

When DPS is high enough, the value of resource recovery plummets since you won't need it unless someone messes up on mechanics and drains the healer's MP (even then, I'd argue that things are salvageable seeing that casters have been given more ways to restore their own MP).

dps will not be high enough unless you already have done the content and out gear it. in which case you're right certain things aren't needed like 2 heals 2 tanks.

[ParanoidHobo]

This whole BRD thing these days has left me very surprised by the number of people who are, seemingly content, that their raid slot is secured primarily by nature of their ability to be a glorified battery

[Lillia]

This whole BRD thing these days has left me very surprised by the number of people who are, seemingly content, that their raid slot is secured primarily by nature of their ability to be a glorified battery

It's more like acceptance not contentment. We've always been a 'battery' mid-tp/mp stress fights anyways.

But yeah, the reality is that there's no way we're going to be going from 50~99 without changes to our playstyle or rotation anyways so rather than fight about it, we're trying to change with the flow. We're getting WM fixed def and honestly if stuff gets fixed then we can change properly.

It's not solely on us doing tp/mp regen but that is definitely a strong reason we're picked, I heard machinist isn't as strong in that department though so.... I don't know but I definitely hope you guys get fixed too, so that you can toss out some decent dps.

[micheleuno]

So in any non-premade party with too much bards can fail a dps check? and a 4-man dungeon, with two bards, why make things slowers just for "they doing the bare minimun"?

bards can do the same damage moving or not moving. we will use blackmage as the example they would have no dps if movement was as required as everyone seems to believe.
wm is not meant to be used 100%

There are some problems with that:
- yes, let's compare Bards with Black mages... and even if you can make dps dodging AoE, the dps gain you get with WM is MARGINAL even in PERFECT CONDITIONS,WM is useless.
-and yes, is meant to be used 100% of the time, or like an opener. Reasons: 3s cast.

-they changed in 180° the bard's paradigm because of reasons, SE cut our legs and what we get back, basically nothing.
Bards are meant to be DPS and not just a jukebox who spits buff,and we are already heavily penalized by using our songs, there's no reason to hinder our dps even further.

[Catwho]

God the hell we would raise. Only would need two Bards to actively cycle Requiem and Ballad. Every other slot filled with casters. I wanna see it happen, lol.

You just described some fights in FFXI, haha.

Oh, the days of three bard alliance wide rotations for Dynamis Lord and Kirin!

[Ultimatecalibur]

-they changed in 180° the bard's paradigm because of reasons, SE cut our legs and what we get back, basically nothing.
Bards are meant to be DPS and not just a jukebox who spits buff,and we are already heavily penalized by using our songs, there's no reason to hinder our dps even further.

The problems with WM and GR have already been recognized. It is likely that someone a SE made a mistake calculating the effects of the two abilities on DpS. It looks like the formulas they used forgot to factor in the DpS gained from auto-attacks. All they need to do to fix the to abilities is to increases the stances damage bonuses to the point where a Bard/Machinist in WM/GR is doing 120% the damage as one that is not in the stances.

[nuyu11]

From my own point of view Bard strong point is their mobility, they can move without losing their DPS. Yes I agree their DPS is not the strongest but their mobility is their biggest asset. Do you know why Bard are assigned to take Blue fire Ice Buff and intercept the Red fire Ball during T12? Because they can move and DPS at the same time, they are "Helper" or "Assistance" in many ways not just from song only.

That's why many Bards are mad when they lost their mobility plus their auto attack are taken away from it. Yes we can switch off our "Wanderer's Minuet", but we can't use our new skill.

I honestly feel suck when I need to disable my new skill for the sake of mobility while seeing all other Job can use it freely.

I cant pew-pew while moving.

[QiLymePye]

Ok Musashi, based on your "understanding" (sarcasm) of the BRD class, and I challenge all BRDS to do this. when in a party, all brds should just sing, no dps. I mean, hey, what dps we put out is either not needed, or minimal anyways. See how far the group gets. By the same token, Tanks should not attack, just flash/provoke and absorbs dmg. Healers, no throwing stone or whatever, just heal. if no one needs healing, just do nothing until they do. Melee, just stand there and attack. Because apparently, only BRD is supposed to do only one thing only, which is sing, which isn't even what they are listed as.

My point is that its the UTILITY of the BRD that made the class after 2.0. Yes, we werent the top dps, yes we weren't the best support and yes we moved a bit. But its the fact that we could adapt that made the class. We were kinda the jack of all trades. We would pop a song to help with mp/tp, then do some dps, maybe hit a switch here or there, kite some enemies, even pull, all while being mobile. Thats what it means to have UTILITY. As of now, BRDS utility has taken a huge hit, and people that don't play the brd class can't understand that.

Now not one BRD has said they want to do same dps as melee constantly. Yes, we can burst. And we were ok with that. So stop saying we want to be on par with melee. We want to be on par with how far we were behind melee dps in 2.0. We want consistency. I mean, im hearing that there ave been plenty of TANKS doing more DPS than BRD and MCH, doing more dps than a dps role. BRD is the ONLY class/job that had its mechanics totally changed. Its like them making casters have to be in melee range to pull of spells while keeping the disadvantage of having to not move while casting. Or having tanks be completely mobile while trying to keep enmity. Its taking the core concept of the class, which is their mobility/utility, not just singing for 10% of a fight, and changing it.

And finally, I created this thread to inspire BRDS and even non BRDS to come up with creative ways to fix the BRD/MCH problems(RNG for MCH-WTF was SE thinking). So instead of coming here and talking about BRDS being TP/MP mobile pots(which you shouldn't be happy about, cause if thats the case, people won't play as them and then you won't even have that in your group), give ideas for how you want SE to come to a compromise for a fix.

[Duelle]

But yeah, the reality is that there's no way we're going to be going from 50~99 without changes to our playstyle or rotation anyways so rather than fight about it, we're trying to change with the flow.

This much is obvious, but the key thing to remember is that the additions should be cohesive to the rest of the desing. If you're going to make major changes, then those have to retroactively affect the way the job grows. WM does neither.

[QiLymePye]

This much is obvious, but the key thing to remember is that the additions should be cohesive to the rest of the desing. If you're going to make major changes, then those have to retroactively affect the way the job grows. WM does neither.

Yes, and also, why only change one class? change them all at the same time. I think they just dropped the ball and just need to go back and fix it. Like i said, if BRD is so important to endgame only because of their songs, then people will quit using them and you who think its their only viable reason to be in raid groups will see that we are not needed to sing songs, proving us right in the long run.