Ways to fix BRD and MCH in a realistic way

[Kayote]

Thats why i think Wanderer and Gauss could be reconsidered about many aspects but not about the mobility, that is totally cool from my point of view.

Id be fine with that. Like ive said before, mobility was never really a thing for me. Frankly I think its overpowered in itself to be able to all but completely bypass one of the very few punishing mechanics in the game. More importantly, im tired of being pigeon-holed into a role that doesnt exist. BRDs support role is a relic of 1.0 and not even that exclusive anymore. I may not like WM in its current form but I like the direction SE meant to go with it and hope the improve on it.

[micheleuno]

I think the main problem is that now we loose our mobility, but we didn't win anything, i mean before we hit less than other dps classes, but our damage was constant, but now we make marginally more damage IN PERFECT CONDITIONS.
So if they won't give our mobility back, they should make Wanderer worth it, and that will mean a heavy damage increase.
I think a solution would be make the new spells usable without the Wanderer, but with cast, that way we can choose the moment to stand and cast them.

[Intellion]

This is what i'm hoping the bards will understand, i totally support changes like the ones you are saying.

Please now follow me, i am no lvl 60 bard, i'm really stupid and all but take some time to really think about what i am going to say.
SE made a pretty clear choice with Gauss Barrel and Wanderer's Minuet and that is: "We don't want ranged physical classes being able to move everywhere, everytime in total freedom"

Why they made this choice? (The bomb is coming)

If you ever played another DPS other than bard in 2.0 you should have noticed that being a bard in AOE heavy fights was an easier job than being any other DPS in the same situation.
I think that is the reason, and i also think you'll not have your mobility back (and i agree with that)

Thats why i think Wanderer and Gauss could be reconsidered about many aspects but not about the mobility, that is totally cool from my point of view.

I don't think so.

If you actually knew how to play Bards properly post 2.0, especially around 2.5, you'd see that there was nothing "overpowered" about the class. Past 2.0, Bard was a completely balanced and fair class for what it was.

We could move and rapid fire simultaneously, and we had some nice utility songs, but the cost we had to pay was our damage, and to an extent, our durability. But we were fine with that, since mobility was and is still the defining name of this job, not raw damage.

Were AoE-heavy fights easier as a Bard in ARR? Not really. I had both BRD and NIN at 50 by 2.55, and didn't really notice any difference in difficulty between raid bosses. Sure, NIN had to come close and some AoEs were tricky to dodge at melee range, but there were also PLENTY of AoEs that were far harder to dodge at range, meaning that some attacks actually felt easier to dodge as NIN than BRD. Plus, casters and melee effortlessly pumped out much more DPS than us, and we just had to live with it. But at least we were mobile and very flexible. So in the end, everything balanced out perfectly well.

Want a living proof that Bards were balanced in 2.55? If mobility was so "OMG OVERPOWERED nerf pls", then how come a 4-Bard DPS party was undesirable or even considered asinine in places like Second Coil or Final Coil? Why were there even moments when a second Bard would be dismissed in those raids in exchange for a melee or caster?

Simple answer, really: because mobility is NOT overpowered, at least not after the post-2.0 nerfs that Bards already got.

So your claim that "Bards don't deserve mobility" because it's too "OP?" It doesn't hold up, because you literally just took away the only thing that made the class stand out. Since it's been proven that ALL classes have some sort of utility, you can't count that as a Bard exclusive. So in ARR, these are what defined the different DPS classes:

Melee: High-powered, instant melee attacks. Mobile.
Casters: High-powered ranged spells with casting times. Immobile.
Ranged: Low-powered, instant ranged attacks. Mobile.

As you can see, it's a perfectly balanced "triangle" that sorts itself out.

In 3.0, this is now how DPS classes look like:

Melee: High-powered, insta-cast melee attacks. Mobile.
Casters: High-powered ranged spells with casting times. Immobile.
Ranged: Low-powered ranged spells with casting times. Immobile.

Ranged DPS had their only defining point taken away unjustly, and have now effectively become inferior casters should they be forced to adopt Minuet/Gauss Barrel. Might as well play a caster.

But wait! Many Bards chose to roll as Ranged DPS and not as Casters when they first started pre-Heavensward! Many of them also have BLM or SMN at level 0! Surely, it's a BRILLIANT idea to force them into inferior caster roles against their wishes!

Hooray for "good" game design!


Remember the saying: "If it's not broken, don't fix it."

You should, because in this case, SE thought it would be "wise" to "fix" a completely balanced class, and only ended up destroying it.

There's no "ifs" or "buts." The "Bard-" actually, no. Let's be honest here. This class is a Ranger, not a Bard. The Ranger is built from the ground up as a mobile run and gunner, not as a spell caster. It's been like that since 2.0, and it should stay like that even in 3.0 and beyond. That is a fact. If you actually know how to play Bards properly (aka have mastered it), this shouldn't even be put up for question.

Is it acceptable to add cast times to melee? No.
Is it acceptable to nerf casters to melee range? No.
So why should it be acceptable for Bards (and MCH) to have their only trump card, mobility, taken away from them, when there's already more than enough checks and balances in place back in 2.55 to even it out?

[Musashidon]

So why should it be acceptable for Bards (and MCH) to have their only trump card, mobility, taken away from them, when there's already more than enough checks and balances in place back in 2.55 to even it out?

your trump card is songs. not moving.

noone has ever said hey i wanna static with a bard cause they can run and shoot. they take them for tp/mp song.

[Lillia]

snip

Really? you're going to compare 2.55 to right now? When every job but bard and machinist now has new operational toys that work fine? How about letting SE fix the skills first? Can it not wait that badly?

I mean really, when something absolutely needed tweaking they always did tweak it from my understanding and now we have a reply on it then stuff flies off the handle whinershire style?

And it wasn't 'fixed' it was changed along with other jobs for an expansion that increased level cap and added skills which triggered that change. Yes the skills don't work right now but that's why actual fixing is being done.

There's not a single game that never needed to fix a class/job or some aspect of the game at least once thus far in history, Heck there's some companies who don't fix them or reply period. We got both so lets wait and see how the changes are and if it's not fixed enough then we'll give more feedback.

And it's actually like this; Ranged: Low-powered ranged skills with cast time and immobility when inside Wanderer's Minuet and Gauss Barrel which isn't even being used currently.

[meldon90]

snip

I like how you know everything about my life (you know how and how much i played my bard in previous contents)

Anyway SE actions are clear on this matter, and they are game designers by profession (Yoshi-p also saved a game that was dead and now has 5 millions users), if they made such an hard choice maybe what i told was not so incredible.

[Dragoon4life]

Honestly I don't use it or have yet to see other bards use it as well. 20% isn't really ground breaking enough to use. Also it make the class NOT FUN.

[NoahArks]

Make GB and WM useful? Pretty much take out the cast time, or give back the auto attack. I noticed I do a lot more damage without my GB on. Not lvl60 yet, but I'm doing it extremely slow so I won't get burned out after a month, like what happened with the 2.0 release.


No GB:
Auto-attack: 200-300
Damage with skills:400-550 (no crit)


GB:
Damage with skills: 600-700


So in the perfect condition you hit the same/more without using GB. Especially since there is a 1second cast time, and we mch are still stuck with the rngesus for optimal damage.



The other method would be losing the rng and just give it 100% proc rate.

[Volgera]

Last night I ran Fractal with another bard (yes 2 bards). I never used WM as he had WM up all the time. Almost same gear, I had a 160 sash while he had 160 hands.

Result: I literally crushed him. I was always at the point of pulling aggro from tank while he was always in 4th. Sometimes I let him killing a mob alone while I was on another of the same kind. I killed mine while the other mob still with +25% hp left (and I was using RoD all the time instead of BL).

Unless he is a terrible PoS Bard I cant find a single useful situation for WM but to burst only. Every single time I try to use it my dps drops drastically.

[AskaRay]

Last night I ran Fractal with another bard (yes 2 bards). I never used WM as he had WM up all the time. Almost same gear, I had a 160 sash while he had 160 hands.

Result: I literally crushed him. I was always at the point of pulling aggro from tank while he was always in 4th. Sometimes I let him killing a mob alone while I was on another of the same kind. I killed mine while the other mob still with +25% hp left (and I was using RoD all the time instead of BL).

Unless he is a terrible PoS Bard I cant find a single useful situation for WM but to burst only. Every single time I try to use it my dps drops drastically.

Which is funny, because I've had the same experience in Fractal, but reversed (I took down WM for bosses after burst, however). My mobs dropped to the floor long before their's did. I also constantly pulled off the tank.

Really... it just depends on the run and the person.