Ways to fix BRD and MCH in a realistic way

[Ticks]

Nope, its not, their main bonus are the damn songs, why bards cant understand this?

A tank, a healer, one dps and some songs wont get you through much - as it is right now with a bard in the party

[micheleuno]

I think there are several things to take into account:
- I choose the bard for it's mobility, and bard was the only class that SE decided to take it's paradigm and change it completelly, we were the "run and gun" class but now we are a mage with bow, and what did we win, a marginal increase on our dps, only when there are no AoE around.

-The songs are an important characteristic of the bard, but you know what, we are the only class (if i´m not wrong) who get penalized by using it's buff, so we already hit less than other dps class, and if we want to use our songs, we hit even less.

-We use a DPS spot, some people say that the bard are needed by it's songs, so i think i should stand waiting for some heler with low mana or someone with low TP.

-The amount of time we need to be singing is pretty low, as a non hardcore player i think i'ts almost never.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Make Songs and Support raid wide and bring in actual raiding content. <3

[Lewtskie]

God the hell we would raise. Only would need two Bards to actively cycle Requiem and Ballad. Every other slot filled with casters. I wanna see it happen, lol.

[Kayote]

I was going to point out the same thing lol.

Its just mind boggling isnt it? Even Bards say their DPS should be low because "oh but we're support."

No, no we are not. There is no support. There are support abilities which all DPS have. Thats like saying WAR should be horrible tanks because they DPS a little better now than other tanks. What?!?! No... their role is tank, they need to and should match the other tanks as best they can. Apparently that only sounds silly when its not BRD and MCH. /tableflip

[Ultimatecalibur]

If thats true then we need a melee buff songs, maybe some avoidance, +crit, +accuracy... you know, buffs. Actual buffs. Because some crappy 10% magic damage debuff (no its actually -resistance)that only helps with casters, and resource regens that youll never need with experienced players, sounds like a whole lot of bulldookie for a class thats not only does less damage while buffing the group, it also takes a another nerf by design.

Foe Requiem does not cost the Bard DpS; it is a roughly 11% increase in caster DpS and you are guaranteed at the least 2 per 8 man content. Healer DpS is being factored in for Alexander Savage so FR will help in there.

Paladin has increased MT and OT DpS, but little effective way to recover TP. Effective use of Armies Peon will likely extend their ability to DpS by more than 25% while the Bard temporarily loses 15% damage output and tank DpS got a lot better than it was at 50.

Do not assume that standards set in 2.55 when Raid content was overgeared will be the same when Alexander Savage is released.

[Intellion]

I guess I might as well finish with this since this thread has derailed too much already.

My original argument was that many Bards chose the class for its gameplay, which is a mobile run-and-gunner. And that's not a bad reason because being able to move while attacking and weaving in oGCDs rapidly allowed us to still pump out acceptable DPS even with our low damage. Also, there are plenty of people who like ranged combat, but absolutely dislike standing still to cast spells, or are just not fans of magic in general. That, too, is a completely valid and fair reason for choosing Bard pre-3.0. Songs are just a bonus, but to us who've actually mained Bard and painstakingly learned it till 60, our mobility and speed still defined our core gameplay. Chances are, bards never even use songs outside of dire situations in hardcore raids. And that's like what? Only around 1% of a Bard's total gameplay time (solo-play, questing, FATES, and other non-raid playtime included).

Yet there were people like Meldon, who argued that Bards should have their mobility taken away because it's "overpowered," although I already proved why it's not. Then there are people like Musha, who argued that Bards should have their mobility taken away because they apparently should be nothing more but TP and MP pots, and attacking and movement is irrelevant, despite the fact that those are integral components of Bards. I have also posted plenty of good reasons why that shouldn't be the case, although somehow that derailed the topic into something else.

In the end upon looking at these people's characters, none of them even have Bard leveled at 60, or even at 52, where they learn Minuet, the root cause of all these outrages. That is a red flag right there. Personally speaking, I believe you should only comment on these class feedback threads when you've already mastered a class's core mechanics. In other words, have reached the level cap and spent a considerable amount of time in it. Because even seasoned Bards demand proof and statistics from other seasoned Bards when they make unpopular opinion about Minuet or the 3.0 Bard changes.

If experienced career Bards are already being asked to prove their credibility or to show parse numbers or number-crunching data when defending Minuet, how much more credibility, do you think, does a non-Bard with only a Lv. 20 archer, for example, has when making baseless claims such as "You're not DPS, you are just jukeboxes. Taking away your mobility is A-OK" or "You don't need mobility/casting times doesn't break your gameplay, lrn2play your job." They have no credibility at all. They have no clue what they are talking about, yet they are mouthing off anyways.

That is my ultimate gripe with threads like these, and why I comment on these kinds of people. I'll state it again. If you don't even have the class at max level, you have not spent enough time with it, and hence all of your claims are baseless and lack credibility. In other words, null and void. This is a PSA to non-Bards. Just please refrain from making smart-aleck comments in these threads, because your ignorance is only adding fuel to the fire.

[Musashidon]

snip

as much as you do, seeing as songs aren't as important as moving. which blm has clearly over proven is not true at all.

the only ignorance is the fact that you add nothing to the argument but you're wrong you're not lvl 60 like me.

wanna have a real discussion then add too it.

don't just pretend you're better without adding anything to the table.

[Welsper59]

Foe Requiem does not cost the Bard DpS; it is a roughly 11% increase in caster DpS and you are guaranteed at the least 2 per 8 man content. Healer DpS is being factored in for Alexander Savage so FR will help in there.

Paladin has increased MT and OT DpS, but little effective way to recover TP. Effective use of Armies Peon will likely extend their ability to DpS by more than 25% while the Bard temporarily loses 15% damage output and tank DpS got a lot better than it was at 50.

Do not assume that standards set in 2.55 when Raid content was overgeared will be the same when Alexander Savage is released.

Requiem is elemental resistance reduction, meaning it has pretty much no impact on melee. Doesn't exactly scream all around useful in any given situation. The point of the matter is that they might be great for progression, but they're practically useless everywhere else. Why bring a gimped job when you can easily get a different one to better fill the role (DPS) for well over 90% of the game at any given moment? LOL! It's the fact that people view the situational songs/support, which are hindered by very limited upkeep (and further hindered if using a regen song), as enough reason to permanently keep the damage low, that makes the situation horrible to accept. If the support was universal and applicable to all situations (8man, 24man, 4man, solo), and provided equal benefit throughout, then that would be a totally different story. As is, it does not... not even close. This is coming from someone who has played support roles in games for years, including a long-time BRD in FFXI... probably the best example of how justifiable a support player can be to take up a party slot.

[Duelle]

what you don't get is your dps doesn't matter your boost to the other dps do.

Resource recovery is not a direct DPS boost. You'd have to give BRD +Attack, +Crit and +Determination before you can even make that claim. This said, Paeon and Ballad are essentially raid cooldowns, which is why they're a nice thing to have but are not definitive of BRD gameplay. They're basically our version of Bloodlust/Heroism, except Blizzard and the WoW's playerbase haven't convinced themselves that Shaman DPS needs to be below the tanks to justify them having those buffs.

And BRD DPS does matter because if they're in the group, their contribution to DPS checks will determine whether you see the next phase or wipe.

mobility has nothing to do with it.

Mobility is precipitated by the fact BRD is built around instants and off-GCD skills. It's what allows them to keep up the damage despite dealing less damage per skill, since they can keep attacking while everyone else is moving in and out of AoEs.

let's see you beat a raid without a bard when your tank/melee dps are out of tp and your healers are out of mp, and you are doing zero damage and dying because noone is getting heals.

When DPS is high enough, the value of resource recovery plummets since you won't need it unless someone messes up on mechanics and drains the healer's MP (even then, I'd argue that things are salvageable seeing that casters have been given more ways to restore their own MP).