How is BLM in new expansion?

[Aikaal]

It's comparative.

snip.

So, I was told about that SMN Guide but I didn't read it. I'd never read 66 pages, it's too long. I like the guy and I've played with him and he's a really good player but when it comes to theorycraft... I'm not sure. 90% of what he wrote is most-likely unneeded and this includes the SMN vs BLM 13 pages he pointed. The only argument I need to say is his document's title is "The 3.0 Summoner: An Extensive Guide". There is zero reason to even say the word BLM as someone should compare them in a proper document. Even worst, since it's called a SMN Guide it leads to players that main SMN looks at it and not main BLM and obviously everybody main SMN will agree that their job is better. You can't get a better example of massive biased group there.

I'll agree that SMN lose less DPS than BLM on mobility but his claims has no maths. He did not compare a BLM rotation during movement versus a SMN rotation.

I'll give one quick example of DPS loss. First, you are wrong when you say you only lose the spell potency. A good Summoner will recast a dot when it's less than 3 seconds. So if you had to move while you are casting Miasma I (for example) you'd have to move away and ruin II. This means you'll lose 3 secs where this DoT does not exist on your target. This is a 35 potency lost. What would happen in that situation if your Miasma two had 2 secs left and Bio II 5 secs left. You'd lose an extra 35 potency for a total of 70 potency. If we extend this fictive scenario that you have to move, cast and move again. You'd lose a total of 105 potencies only for those 2 DoTs. There is a high possibility all Shadow Flare, Bio, Bio II and Miasma are delayed because of that although you can Bio easily has it is instant. You quickly realize that you can easily lose 105-135 or even 175 potency has you'll focus on surviving mechanics more than upkeep your maximal DPS during progression.

This situation for a BLM. F4 > Move Scathe > F1 > Move Scathe > F4 > F4. Scathe is 120 Potency. If you calc 100 Potency with 20% chance of double Potency. After 5 it gives you 600 Potency. 600/5 = 120. You gain 240 Potency for losing 504 Potency. It's a lost of 264 Potency which is a greater lost than Summoners.

Where I want to get: BLM are currently higher in single target DPS than Summoner. In that example, my Swiftcast is always for 2 secs left B4 Enochians or movement. I could replace 1 scathe for that swiftcast and save 384 Potency. Before someone says "You can't F1 > Scathe > F4 twice" I can easily without Leylines do F1 > F4 x3 > B3. And Swiftcast for SMN, at best saves about 70-100 potency.

So when you say you can easily compare SMN to BLM I am not sure Sir. I would like to see your maths.

[Hontaro]

snip

There are some points that you're missing here.
Depending on the nature of the movement, SMN has a few tools minimize the downtime of his casts. For example: T13 Megaflare. You see the cast coming and your DoT has 3 seconds left. Instead of refreshing the DoT, you can use Ruin2, then move while GCD runs and refresh it afterwards. Alternatively, you can decide to refresh your DoTs early if you know that a movement-heavy mechanic will come.

Though you could argue that BLM can do the same, it's not truly right because your FireIV rotation is limited on the duration of AF3 and Enochian, especially the former restricts you very much because you can only use 2 GCDs (3 when switching to UB3) before you have to use Fire1 again.

Another point is that FireIV has a 3 second cast time (no spellspeed) vs. the 2.5 seconds of SMN DoTs. This can be crucial when slide-casting out of AoEs, so SMN might not lose a GCD where the BLM will definitely do.

[Hontaro]

Also, with a certain PIE threshold and under certain conditions, the basic BLM rotation changes to AF3 -> Fire IV x2 -> Fire1 -> Fire IV x3 -> UB3, which means that you can use a third Fire IV at the end while still having enough mana and time to switch to UB3. With your "movement" rotation, you will lose out on 2 Fire IVs in this case, which is an even more severe DPS loss.
Another thing I want to point out is that yes, it is possible to "F1 > Scathe > F4 twice", but only if Scathe is cast directly after F1, which means that if you have to cancel mid-cast and use Scathe afterwards, the duration of AF3 will not be enough.

[HaroldSaxon]

Also, with a certain PIE threshold and under certain conditions, the basic BLM rotation changes to AF3 -> Fire IV x2 -> Fire1 -> Fire IV x3 -> UB3, which means that you can use a third Fire IV at the end while still having enough mana and time to switch to UB3. With your "movement" rotation, you will lose out on 2 Fire IVs in this case, which is an even more severe DPS loss.
Another thing I want to point out is that yes, it is possible to "F1 > Scathe > F4 twice", but only if Scathe is cast directly after F1, which means that if you have to cancel mid-cast and use Scathe afterwards, the duration of AF3 will not be enough.

I've thought about it and wondered if its worth it, but you end up waiting for mana after your B3 cast, and you're enochian timer is even tighter iirc. I'm not sure if its worth it but i've not put much thought into it.

Do you have some hard numbers on this? (Potency lost/gained, what piety is required?).

[Hontaro]

Just ran some tests again.
You need 276/277 Piety, which amounts to 269 base Piety + party PIE buff.
The specific condition where the rotation is possible is when you have full mana, use F3 to switch from UB3 to AF3 and you get another mana tick after UB3 wears off.
During the first Enochian rotation (30s), it is doable even when waiting for a full mana tick.
During the second Enochian rotation (25s), you will have to Swiftcast B4, else you will lose Enochian. If you're able to use this rotation during both rotations, there is no need to Swiftcast B4, since Enochian CD is only about 5-7s.

Another sweet side effect is: If you have full mana, use B4 and then go into AF3 with F3 without an UB3 mana tick (which means you have [(Full Mana) - (B4 cost) - (F3 cost)] ), 277 Piety will leave you enough mana to use B4 after casting F4 > F4 > F1 > F4 > F4 > B3, which is normally not possible, thus saving a mana tick.

[Hontaro]

Potency gain/loss is a bit edgy, because everything depends on timing.
Normally, it's a flat potency gain of one F4, maybe minus T1/2 because you don't have time to cast it during UB3.
Then, it depends on when the next mana tick comes. There is little potency loss when the next tick is right after you get into UB3, and a higher loss when you need to wait 2s. If you get a mana tick between the AF3 > UB3 transition, you can fill the gap with one B1 though.
Also, the rotation is longer (3-5 seconds), so one rotation may be at a higher potency, but I don't know how it affects the whole fight.

PS: Ugh, can I do something about this 1000 character limit?

[hallena]

PS: Ugh, can I do something about this 1000 character limit?

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