How is BLM in new expansion?

[Aikaal]

I actually don\\'t think that\\'s true with Disable around (10% damage down on one attack, 60s recast, works on one attack). The way I look at it, if you can survive without Disable but with Supervirus, you can usually survive with Disable and without Supervirus. Both would be very handy to have but as of right now I wouldn\\'t necessarily let it alter your comp choice, as, aside from a purely magical enemy here or there, or Akh Morns, one attack is all that\\'s been needed to get debuffed in the past.

So you\\'re saying a group could get both disable and super virus =p

My group has sch whm so I don't have this issue. Ast is still the weakness healer right now for progression.

[ekental]

115 Potency lost everytime you have to move and lose a cast for Summoner.

It's comparative.

First. SMN is more mobile because all of BLM's spells that matter have cast times and some of SMN ones do not, also Ruin II.

You've summed the opportunity cost & the potency cost of the spell you're casting, which makes no sense.
You only lose the potency of that spell cast at worst. Additionally you can immediately Ruin II to mitigate the issue.

On BLM, where if you can't stutter step it you scathe, which is an opportunity cost of Fire IV. That's a big loss. Compared to a SMN, which was at worst 3 sec off a DoT.

You already know the potency of every spell and you can math out what you lose if you move. Plenty of people have already done so. Hai Hai did some good work on it AFAIK.

BLM and SMN aren't that far off in DPS on a dummy. It takes no stretch of the imagination to see SMN pull ahead if there's reasonable movement in the new raid.

[Elix_Moarbase]

It's comparative.

Yeah, it's to the point now where people see the truth. Run as a blm with a smn in any instance, and you'll quickly find our restrictions are pointless as the dmg is too similar. Imo, blm is currently pointless outside of style. Maybe that's how they wanted it? But, why not go with the class that has better aoe, the same (or higher with movement) dmg on single, and actual utility?

Seriously, find a good smn to play with and the truth is so obvious.

[Ravusa]

I just would very much like the class fixed :C

[Clarkamite]

Seriously, find a good smn to play with and the truth is so obvious.

We'll see how this turns out in Alexander but I can think of one thing that BLM definitely has over SMN. It's up to the masses to decide how useful this is but our initial up front burst is definitely better. This is noticeable with things like adds. BLM has always been the better add nuker than SMN. My SMN buddy mentions how much easier Ravana kills would be with me as a BLM in the party. The group he currently farms with runs double SMN, NIN, and something else not a BLM and after both him and the other SMN ramp up the butterflies still have health left. Two casts from me and they would be dead and you wouldn't have to wait around for dots to finish them off.

Now obviously this isn't necessarily the greatest thing ever but there's definitely some instances where an add needs to be burned down quick and a Summoner simply can't do what a BLM can there.

My personal opinion is both casters are in a great spot and I'm willing to bet that when we start raiding, our group will be just fine with our current DPS comp of SMN, BLM, NIN, BRD. Just running dungeons right now with my NIN and we already destroy things. Can't imagine once we put the whole team (who's specialty has always been DPS) together.

[HaroldSaxon]

We'll see how this turns out in Alexander but I can think of one thing that BLM definitely has over SMN. It's up to the masses to decide how useful this is but our initial up front burst is definitely better. This is noticeable with things like adds. BLM has always been the better add nuker than SMN. My SMN buddy mentions how much easier Ravana kills would be with me as a BLM in the party. The group he currently farms with runs double SMN, NIN, and something else not a BLM and after both him and the other SMN ramp up the butterflies still have health left. Two casts from me and they would be dead and you wouldn't have to wait around for dots to finish them off.

Now obviously this isn't necessarily the greatest thing ever but there's definitely some instances where an add needs to be burned down quick and a Summoner simply can't do what a BLM can there.

My personal opinion is both casters are in a great spot and I'm willing to bet that when we start raiding, our group will be just fine with our current DPS comp of SMN, BLM, NIN, BRD. Just running dungeons right now with my NIN and we already destroy things. Can't imagine once we put the whole team (who's specialty has always been DPS) together.

> 3 second casts
> Low HP Add Nuker

Pick One.

You're group may be "just fine" with a BLM, but it certainly would be better with a MNK or DRG instead of the BLM.

[Adventica6]

imo any of the casters aren't that amazing at the moment, any of the melees can keep up or surpass their dmg while not being penalized for movement, in the 3sec is takes for a blm to cast one spell I can do 2 skills + some ogcd skills, which adds up over a fight, if a caster makes one mistake their dps is gone, where as melee we just use another instant skill...

mobility is king in any mmo, nothing will ever change.

[Twilite]

I've played with a few good SMNs, yes.. often I don't get to Flare before they kill everything else.

[Arg0n]

I can need some opionions/advices to Enochian.

After the opener, we extend Enochian up to 25 secs.
If we got a lot of movement now, sometimes i come a bit in trouble to extend it after 2nd Rotation up to 20 sec again.
Is it worth to stop my Rotation (maybe i could do one more FireIV, but Enochian would fall of after this) and cast Ice III and Ice IV after it, just to get my Enochain again before it falls off on cooldown? Cause otherwise i may not have Enochian for about 5-10secs (depends on when you refresh it to 25secs).

And as a European on a server stationed in Canada, it's quite hard if I just have to do 1 step cause of boss mechanic to stay in my Rotation. Astral Fire could be really increased up to 12 secs

Atm i'm just like "Naahh just one more F4 before i move --> baaam too late and a insanely hit from boss" in a orange area from boss. But if i would move, i may have to recast FireI too soon (/lose 1 FireIV) xD

[Aikaal]

It's comparative.

snip.

So, I was told about that SMN Guide but I didn't read it. I'd never read 66 pages, it's too long. I like the guy and I've played with him and he's a really good player but when it comes to theorycraft... I'm not sure. 90% of what he wrote is most-likely unneeded and this includes the SMN vs BLM 13 pages he pointed. The only argument I need to say is his document's title is "The 3.0 Summoner: An Extensive Guide". There is zero reason to even say the word BLM as someone should compare them in a proper document. Even worst, since it's called a SMN Guide it leads to players that main SMN looks at it and not main BLM and obviously everybody main SMN will agree that their job is better. You can't get a better example of massive biased group there.

I'll agree that SMN lose less DPS than BLM on mobility but his claims has no maths. He did not compare a BLM rotation during movement versus a SMN rotation.

I'll give one quick example of DPS loss. First, you are wrong when you say you only lose the spell potency. A good Summoner will recast a dot when it's less than 3 seconds. So if you had to move while you are casting Miasma I (for example) you'd have to move away and ruin II. This means you'll lose 3 secs where this DoT does not exist on your target. This is a 35 potency lost. What would happen in that situation if your Miasma two had 2 secs left and Bio II 5 secs left. You'd lose an extra 35 potency for a total of 70 potency. If we extend this fictive scenario that you have to move, cast and move again. You'd lose a total of 105 potencies only for those 2 DoTs. There is a high possibility all Shadow Flare, Bio, Bio II and Miasma are delayed because of that although you can Bio easily has it is instant. You quickly realize that you can easily lose 105-135 or even 175 potency has you'll focus on surviving mechanics more than upkeep your maximal DPS during progression.

This situation for a BLM. F4 > Move Scathe > F1 > Move Scathe > F4 > F4. Scathe is 120 Potency. If you calc 100 Potency with 20% chance of double Potency. After 5 it gives you 600 Potency. 600/5 = 120. You gain 240 Potency for losing 504 Potency. It's a lost of 264 Potency which is a greater lost than Summoners.

Where I want to get: BLM are currently higher in single target DPS than Summoner. In that example, my Swiftcast is always for 2 secs left B4 Enochians or movement. I could replace 1 scathe for that swiftcast and save 384 Potency. Before someone says "You can't F1 > Scathe > F4 twice" I can easily without Leylines do F1 > F4 x3 > B3. And Swiftcast for SMN, at best saves about 70-100 potency.

So when you say you can easily compare SMN to BLM I am not sure Sir. I would like to see your maths.