How is BLM in new expansion?

[ekental]

115 Potency lost everytime you have to move and lose a cast for Summoner.

It's comparative.

First. SMN is more mobile because all of BLM's spells that matter have cast times and some of SMN ones do not, also Ruin II.

You've summed the opportunity cost & the potency cost of the spell you're casting, which makes no sense.
You only lose the potency of that spell cast at worst. Additionally you can immediately Ruin II to mitigate the issue.

On BLM, where if you can't stutter step it you scathe, which is an opportunity cost of Fire IV. That's a big loss. Compared to a SMN, which was at worst 3 sec off a DoT.

You already know the potency of every spell and you can math out what you lose if you move. Plenty of people have already done so. Hai Hai did some good work on it AFAIK.

BLM and SMN aren't that far off in DPS on a dummy. It takes no stretch of the imagination to see SMN pull ahead if there's reasonable movement in the new raid.

[Elix_Moarbase]

It's comparative.

Yeah, it's to the point now where people see the truth. Run as a blm with a smn in any instance, and you'll quickly find our restrictions are pointless as the dmg is too similar. Imo, blm is currently pointless outside of style. Maybe that's how they wanted it? But, why not go with the class that has better aoe, the same (or higher with movement) dmg on single, and actual utility?

Seriously, find a good smn to play with and the truth is so obvious.

[Clarkamite]

Seriously, find a good smn to play with and the truth is so obvious.

We'll see how this turns out in Alexander but I can think of one thing that BLM definitely has over SMN. It's up to the masses to decide how useful this is but our initial up front burst is definitely better. This is noticeable with things like adds. BLM has always been the better add nuker than SMN. My SMN buddy mentions how much easier Ravana kills would be with me as a BLM in the party. The group he currently farms with runs double SMN, NIN, and something else not a BLM and after both him and the other SMN ramp up the butterflies still have health left. Two casts from me and they would be dead and you wouldn't have to wait around for dots to finish them off.

Now obviously this isn't necessarily the greatest thing ever but there's definitely some instances where an add needs to be burned down quick and a Summoner simply can't do what a BLM can there.

My personal opinion is both casters are in a great spot and I'm willing to bet that when we start raiding, our group will be just fine with our current DPS comp of SMN, BLM, NIN, BRD. Just running dungeons right now with my NIN and we already destroy things. Can't imagine once we put the whole team (who's specialty has always been DPS) together.

[HaroldSaxon]

We'll see how this turns out in Alexander but I can think of one thing that BLM definitely has over SMN. It's up to the masses to decide how useful this is but our initial up front burst is definitely better. This is noticeable with things like adds. BLM has always been the better add nuker than SMN. My SMN buddy mentions how much easier Ravana kills would be with me as a BLM in the party. The group he currently farms with runs double SMN, NIN, and something else not a BLM and after both him and the other SMN ramp up the butterflies still have health left. Two casts from me and they would be dead and you wouldn't have to wait around for dots to finish them off.

Now obviously this isn't necessarily the greatest thing ever but there's definitely some instances where an add needs to be burned down quick and a Summoner simply can't do what a BLM can there.

My personal opinion is both casters are in a great spot and I'm willing to bet that when we start raiding, our group will be just fine with our current DPS comp of SMN, BLM, NIN, BRD. Just running dungeons right now with my NIN and we already destroy things. Can't imagine once we put the whole team (who's specialty has always been DPS) together.

> 3 second casts
> Low HP Add Nuker

Pick One.

You're group may be "just fine" with a BLM, but it certainly would be better with a MNK or DRG instead of the BLM.

[Aikaal]

It's comparative.

snip.

So, I was told about that SMN Guide but I didn't read it. I'd never read 66 pages, it's too long. I like the guy and I've played with him and he's a really good player but when it comes to theorycraft... I'm not sure. 90% of what he wrote is most-likely unneeded and this includes the SMN vs BLM 13 pages he pointed. The only argument I need to say is his document's title is "The 3.0 Summoner: An Extensive Guide". There is zero reason to even say the word BLM as someone should compare them in a proper document. Even worst, since it's called a SMN Guide it leads to players that main SMN looks at it and not main BLM and obviously everybody main SMN will agree that their job is better. You can't get a better example of massive biased group there.

I'll agree that SMN lose less DPS than BLM on mobility but his claims has no maths. He did not compare a BLM rotation during movement versus a SMN rotation.

I'll give one quick example of DPS loss. First, you are wrong when you say you only lose the spell potency. A good Summoner will recast a dot when it's less than 3 seconds. So if you had to move while you are casting Miasma I (for example) you'd have to move away and ruin II. This means you'll lose 3 secs where this DoT does not exist on your target. This is a 35 potency lost. What would happen in that situation if your Miasma two had 2 secs left and Bio II 5 secs left. You'd lose an extra 35 potency for a total of 70 potency. If we extend this fictive scenario that you have to move, cast and move again. You'd lose a total of 105 potencies only for those 2 DoTs. There is a high possibility all Shadow Flare, Bio, Bio II and Miasma are delayed because of that although you can Bio easily has it is instant. You quickly realize that you can easily lose 105-135 or even 175 potency has you'll focus on surviving mechanics more than upkeep your maximal DPS during progression.

This situation for a BLM. F4 > Move Scathe > F1 > Move Scathe > F4 > F4. Scathe is 120 Potency. If you calc 100 Potency with 20% chance of double Potency. After 5 it gives you 600 Potency. 600/5 = 120. You gain 240 Potency for losing 504 Potency. It's a lost of 264 Potency which is a greater lost than Summoners.

Where I want to get: BLM are currently higher in single target DPS than Summoner. In that example, my Swiftcast is always for 2 secs left B4 Enochians or movement. I could replace 1 scathe for that swiftcast and save 384 Potency. Before someone says "You can't F1 > Scathe > F4 twice" I can easily without Leylines do F1 > F4 x3 > B3. And Swiftcast for SMN, at best saves about 70-100 potency.

So when you say you can easily compare SMN to BLM I am not sure Sir. I would like to see your maths.

[Hontaro]

snip

There are some points that you're missing here.
Depending on the nature of the movement, SMN has a few tools minimize the downtime of his casts. For example: T13 Megaflare. You see the cast coming and your DoT has 3 seconds left. Instead of refreshing the DoT, you can use Ruin2, then move while GCD runs and refresh it afterwards. Alternatively, you can decide to refresh your DoTs early if you know that a movement-heavy mechanic will come.

Though you could argue that BLM can do the same, it's not truly right because your FireIV rotation is limited on the duration of AF3 and Enochian, especially the former restricts you very much because you can only use 2 GCDs (3 when switching to UB3) before you have to use Fire1 again.

Another point is that FireIV has a 3 second cast time (no spellspeed) vs. the 2.5 seconds of SMN DoTs. This can be crucial when slide-casting out of AoEs, so SMN might not lose a GCD where the BLM will definitely do.

[Hontaro]

Also, with a certain PIE threshold and under certain conditions, the basic BLM rotation changes to AF3 -> Fire IV x2 -> Fire1 -> Fire IV x3 -> UB3, which means that you can use a third Fire IV at the end while still having enough mana and time to switch to UB3. With your "movement" rotation, you will lose out on 2 Fire IVs in this case, which is an even more severe DPS loss.
Another thing I want to point out is that yes, it is possible to "F1 > Scathe > F4 twice", but only if Scathe is cast directly after F1, which means that if you have to cancel mid-cast and use Scathe afterwards, the duration of AF3 will not be enough.

[HaroldSaxon]

Also, with a certain PIE threshold and under certain conditions, the basic BLM rotation changes to AF3 -> Fire IV x2 -> Fire1 -> Fire IV x3 -> UB3, which means that you can use a third Fire IV at the end while still having enough mana and time to switch to UB3. With your "movement" rotation, you will lose out on 2 Fire IVs in this case, which is an even more severe DPS loss.
Another thing I want to point out is that yes, it is possible to "F1 > Scathe > F4 twice", but only if Scathe is cast directly after F1, which means that if you have to cancel mid-cast and use Scathe afterwards, the duration of AF3 will not be enough.

I've thought about it and wondered if its worth it, but you end up waiting for mana after your B3 cast, and you're enochian timer is even tighter iirc. I'm not sure if its worth it but i've not put much thought into it.

Do you have some hard numbers on this? (Potency lost/gained, what piety is required?).

[Hontaro]

Just ran some tests again.
You need 276/277 Piety, which amounts to 269 base Piety + party PIE buff.
The specific condition where the rotation is possible is when you have full mana, use F3 to switch from UB3 to AF3 and you get another mana tick after UB3 wears off.
During the first Enochian rotation (30s), it is doable even when waiting for a full mana tick.
During the second Enochian rotation (25s), you will have to Swiftcast B4, else you will lose Enochian. If you're able to use this rotation during both rotations, there is no need to Swiftcast B4, since Enochian CD is only about 5-7s.

Another sweet side effect is: If you have full mana, use B4 and then go into AF3 with F3 without an UB3 mana tick (which means you have [(Full Mana) - (B4 cost) - (F3 cost)] ), 277 Piety will leave you enough mana to use B4 after casting F4 > F4 > F1 > F4 > F4 > B3, which is normally not possible, thus saving a mana tick.