The Ninja Superthread

[Elizabeth]

Entirely up to personal opinion... but again.

With Huton, Suiton, Kassatsu, Blood for Blood and Internal Release active (pot if you want to add it)
Whatever comes first > DE > SE(TA) > SF(Ninjutsu) > MU(DwD) > SE(Mug) > GS(Jug + Duality) > AE[All buffs falls here] or:
Whatever comes first > DE > SE(TA) > SF(Ninjutsu) > SE(DwD) > GS(Jug + Duality) > AE(Mug) > MU[All buffs falls here]

Jug, Duality, Mug and TA/SA animation lock are so short you can actually wind them in just like Mudras.

You actually have time to wind in 5 GCD in between TA.
Of course you want to place your strongest weaponskills there, these are SF, MU and AE.
But these combos are for a total of 6 GCD, for this very reason it is necesary that TA happens right inbetween SE and SF.

Thank you @Arkenne i really appreciate it.

[Dante_V]

PPS is king.

As far as the potency of the opener, the dot tics arent affected DE, this is correct, but they are affected by TA, B4B, IR , Dex pot, and the initial strikes of SF and MUT are affected by DE. The total PPS from doing DE first is greater overall than by doing the dots first as you are getting more PPS from these two moves if you capture them with all the buffs vs not.

The math has been done on this more than a few times but overall the difference isnt substantial so I agree that it becomes preference at some point. I just prefer to maximize dps in any situation I can because thats just how I play.

B4B > SE (IR) > GS (XPot) > DE (Suiton) > SE (TA) > SF (Kass) > MUT (Raiton) > SE (DWID) > GS (Duality) > AE (Mug) > SE etc...

This is the highest PPS/parsing opener Ive found that doesnt push two OGCDs into a single GCD. Unfortunately due to lag and pings Im not really able to double up OGCD as it sits right now without cutting Into my next GCD.

[Arkenne]

Then we are more or less on the same plane!
Goodie to know. Too bad you can't wind Jugulate in there :/
But if your ping is too bad do you think its worth for you to use Raiton instead of Shuriken while within 3 yalms range?
I live in the 110~130 ping realm and Raiton in 3 yalms is a b!tch for my dps... have parsed myself with Shuriken alone and the difference is astonishing...

Mug + Jug is a bit tight but Jug + Dual is more viable for some reason. Been enjoying this while solo to dual my oponent and it works wonders.

[Korashy]

snip

That's the very definition of passively getting it. If ninja would get the DE debuff on GS instead of it being an extra skill THEN it would be the same thing. Constantly (passively) applied during your rotation because you need to use that skill to access higher tier combos.

The fact that if you have 2 NIN only one has to do DE is irrelevant. The class should be able to do well on it's own, with the same rotation without dependence on composition.

Pierce Debuff also helps BRD and MECH, but I guarantee you if either class could do it themselves they would alter their rotation around it, and revert back to not doing it if there is a DRG (who passively applies) it, which is the boat NIN is in now.

If my composition doesn't include a Warrior or another NIN (who I can make DE slave), I'm being punished.

[silentwindfr]

we can argue that warrior will not increase our dps, but it's a fact, any DE we don't place can be used for AE.... means a gain of 60 potency.
let's be honest one second, we are the only jobs that use 4 different combo:
- one for AE
- one for DE
- one for SF
- one for AC

with the mudra, the positional, the duration that are a mess and the mechanic of the fight it can be quite a chores to exploit perfectly the ninja, say which cycle we must use here and use it in fight are quite different.

i will say it one more time, i feel that DE must be placed behind SF that will make everything more smoother.

[Elizabeth]

snip

True. That's why i've been using B4B, IR, Dex pot and then start the initial strikes.

[Arkenne]

Missing the point a 2rd time

For some reason there is also a daily limit to the number of posts one can make in these forums... so I would rather not circle around this too much...

Tell me then, what gain is there on having 2 DRGs in a dungeon in relation to the passibly applied Piercing debuff?
Is there any difference at all in either of the 2 DRG's rotations? Does it change in the minimal at all? Does DRG 1 stop using the Piercing debuff in favor of a stronger skill because DRG 2 is using and mantaining it?

What would happen in the scenario of having a WAR and a NIN together and SG were to have the DE effect? Will WAR ever bother applying Storm's Eye? Will there be any difference in DPS for the NIN if there was another NIN around and GS gave the DE effect? Will the DE effect have any point in having a timer even?

You do realize that if GS had the DE effect, DE would have something we would desire to use also, and hence restrict the use of AE and AC even more as a result than it is now, right? Not gonna say you are being serious with the GS having the DE effect, but if it were to be like that, it would be the same that happens for DRGs.

There would be nothing to gain from having 2 NINs and it would hurt the relationship with WAR.

As it is right now, if DE/StE is being sustained by someone else, you can input more AEs until DE/StE timer is dropped for any reason. Whereas DRG can't skip the use of their Piercing debuff skill even if they wanted to cuz that results in a DPS loss. So they have to use it for the sake of using it if there is more than one DRG attacking the same target. They don't have an option. Thats what I meant by "squared and restricted". Of course Im talking of boss battle scenarios.

About the lack of a WAR or 2nd NIN on your static: You aren't being punished for not having them. If you were to have one you would be rewarded.
What I can tell is that you are looking at a glass with water and think of it as half empty. Try to look at it as half full instead.

Sorry if I sounded a bit rude, tho :/

[Korashy]

Tell me then, what gain is there on having 2 DRGs in a dungeon in relation to the passibly applied Piercing debuff?

That's the whole point, they each use it because it let's them access something else that is high damage (hence why both use it), while a NIN will ideally never use DE, unless there is no Warrior. The Warrior uses Storms Eye because it's his second highest damage skill.

There would be nothing to gain from having 2 NINs and it would hurt the relationship with WAR.

Yes. Because we can actually do the debuff ourselves. BRD likes DRG because DRG gives BRD more dmg (something that doesn't change the way they either class plays, it just passively exists for them). NIN likes WAR because it gives NIN more dmg, by having a huge impact on my rotation. I dislike that.

[Arkenne]

The reasons

... Nevermind...

I can only agree with Allyrion that DE might be hogging the priority in the rotation a bit much in contrast to AE and AC.
Something to extend the DE duration could help alleviate this and let the 123 lovers 123 all day =-= (yes, being a bit salty, sorry).

Examples that comes to mind:
- Increasing DE duration to 30 seconds.
- Making AE fully refresh DE duration with -3 seconds. (20, 17, 14 and so on)
- Making SE and GS extend DE effect for +1 second.

[softestPAWSintheEAST]

new parse video 4mins
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVc1DFdo340

i feel like the most unnoticed dps increase is that your DE gets the slashing bonus of the next DE so you wanna try to get it back on right as its about to fall off, and you have to look at where you're at and your latency if you can afford a raiton or a fuma in order to make that happen.