Machinist needs serious attention

[LittleArrow]

I recently read a reddit poster stating that what's really killing MCHs and BRDs atm (despite low potency on weaponskills and RNG) is the weapon damage. I don't know how far we can take this, but the poster stated the new algorithms for damage puts heavy value on weapon damage. Since BRD (now MCH) weapon damage got slammed to the lowest weapon damage in the game back in the day (for no reason...), it seems that this could also be a major culprit.

Please take this with a grain of salt. There were no sources posted with this, and I haven't been able to find any information on the algorithms for damage in Heavensward. I just thought it was an interesting point to bring up in case someone else might have more information on this.

[Zyrusticae]

Even without knowledge of the specific damage formula, it's pretty bloody obvious that having a lower base weapon damage will automatically prevent the two jobs from ever being able to compete damage-wise.

[Ramath]

It doesn't take any sort of serious research to justify this theory. After all, how many DPS guides will tell you "Weapon Damage is your top priority."

EDIT: I just took a look at the base damage of the i170 Law weapons.

PLD: 67
WAR: 67
SCH: 93
WHM: 93
DRG: 67
NIN: 67
BRD: 60
MCN: 60

[LittleArrow]

A friend of mine was looking at the WD of MNKs with Shiva weap compared to BRD and the difference was 9.8. The difference between MNK and BRD with Law is a solid 10... so if that's the case, get ready for this weapon damage disparity to only get worse. : /

[Ramath]

I agree with this.
Also they will likely never bring the DPS on par with BLM/SMN due to the support capabilities.

What "support abilities?"

Did you mean our TP regen? NIN has one of those, why are they still allowed to perform at the top?

Or did you mean our long list of debuffs? Every boss, and half of the non-boss mobs, are all immune to those abilities.

Or was it our DMG-taken-up ability? NIN has one, too..

Or was it the DMG- ability? Doesn't SMN and WAR have that? Hell, even WAR is out DPS'ing us at this point.

[Alberel]

What "support abilities?"

Did you mean our TP regen? NIN has one of those, why are they still allowed to perform at the top?

Or did you mean our long list of debuffs? Every boss, and half of the non-boss mobs, are all immune to those abilities.

Or was it our DMG-taken-up ability? NIN has one, too..

Or was it the DMG- ability? Doesn't SMN and WAR have that? Hell, even WAR is out DPS'ing us at this point.

No one takes a NIN specifically for Goad. No one takes a SMN specifically for Virus (it's even less useful if there's already a SCH in the party) or the extra Raise (it's handy but you shouldn't need it).

In any endgame raid static in ARR there was only one role that was fixed and guaranteed no matter what: the BRD. The AOE resource recovery they offer was simply essential for progression content when people aren't at 100% efficiency yet. BRDs were originally on par with the other DPS jobs when 2.0 launched and parties were taking multiples of the job to cycle their songs, allowing everyone else to just spam their most expensive skills. They were nerfed soon after...

There is a reason why BRD (and now MCH) have lower base weapon damage and inferior DPS to the other jobs. Their support skills were simply too good when paired with competitive DPS as well. Now perhaps here in 3.0 they have fallen too far behind and need some help but they will never be on par with the other jobs as a matter of simple necessity in balance.

[Velhart]

It doesn't take any sort of serious research to justify this theory. After all, how many DPS guides will tell you "Weapon Damage is your top priority."

EDIT: I just took a look at the base damage of the i170 Law weapons.

PLD: 67
WAR: 67
SCH: 93
WHM: 93
DRG: 67
NIN: 67
BRD: 60
MCN: 60

It is understandable that we have lower weapon damage. 60 seems too excessive in comparison though.

[Ramath]

No one takes a NIN specifically for Goad. No one takes a SMN specifically for Virus (it's even less useful if there's already a SCH in the party) or the extra Raise (it's handy but you shouldn't need it).

In any endgame raid static in ARR there was only one role that was fixed and guaranteed no matter what: the BRD. The AOE resource recovery they offer was simply essential for progression content when people aren't at 100% efficiency yet. BRDs were originally on par with the other DPS jobs when 2.0 launched and parties were taking multiples of the job to cycle their songs, allowing everyone else to just spam their most expensive skills. They were nerfed soon after...

There is a reason why BRD (and now MCH) have lower base weapon damage and inferior DPS to the other jobs. Their support skills were simply too good when paired with competitive DPS as well. Now perhaps here in 3.0 they have fallen too far behind and need some help but they will never be on par with the other jobs as a matter of simple necessity in balance.

And no one takes BRD just for their mana regen.

Besides, you still didn't address the other issue: When BRD/MCN isn't directly helping their party (the reason their own damage was nerfed), their own DPS is still lacking. You see, you're missing the point here:

Every job has their tools to increase dmg output for a limited time. That's fine, it's what adds a dynamic element to the game. However, when we AREN'T in those limited windows, every other job gets to remain effective. BRD/MCN doesn't.

Yes, during those burn phases when DRG/BLM/NIN/MNK are going balls to the wall and raising their own dmg output directly, BRD is spending their window enhancing others. THAT is the time when their own dmg should be nerfed to compensate. Not 100% of the time, as it is now.

And when WAR and WHM are putting out more damage than the MCN, there is not "perhaps" about it. MCN never had broken support abilities in the first place. THAT is the main point of this thread. Our ONLY option to increase party damage lasts for 15 secson, out of 2 mins.

[Balipu]

It is understandable that we have lower weapon damage. 60 seems too excessive in comparison though.

Don't forget that we can still attack while moving and dodging. This might not affect every encounter but it may affect some. Who knows. maybe Alexander will have encounters where we will need to run all the time.

[IfritReborn]

Typically, from what I've heard, SE mainly listens to the JP community. Does anyone know if any of the JP players are seeing the same thing as we are? Do we happen to have any JP speakers that could take a look at the JP's forums or their version of reddit to see if they're posting any guides / complaints / comments on MCH?

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...ut_the_mchbrd/

That answers your question.