The argument"MCH/Bard have utility so their damage should be lower"

[Panasync]

You don't get lower damage because you have utility. ...

Summoner and Black Mage aren't ranged? Strange. Melees could easily be argued to have it easier simply because you have to shift behind and to the side of the boss doesn't mean it's somehow more difficult to play the job thus a reward is needed, and like someone stated, you're far overplaying exactly how difficult that is in-general. All fights have mechanics that make ranged move, we're not just getting to sit there and do nothing, and on top of this most of the time ranged/bards are expected to do further mechanics as to not pull melee off the boss. At worst they're the same, at best you have it much easier.

Also what is your reasoning behind not matching melee DPS, because if it's the points above sorry, they just don't hold water.

[pandabearcat]

It doesn't matter whether you should or should not do less damage.

Either you do less damage or you don't.

Either your utility is enough for a raid to bring you or it isn't.

If its the former, then the argument is pointless. You have a spot in a raid whether or not your dps is as high as other classes.

If it is the latter, then things will get fixed.

Bout time you just went and played the game.

I'm fairly certain there is nothing out right now that you cannot beat with good players, regardless of the comp you bring.

4 MCH extremes? Probably possible. Learn to play your class better, esp if it does less damage than usual.

You know how many bards I see complain about their dps being lower, but then never cast foes? The ones that open with ballad and leave it up all the time? The ones that jump around aimlessly and then complain they need to stand still? Why? I have never seen a bard cast foes in a dungeon without me asking for it.

It isn't that your arguments don't hold water, its that regardless of what you feel is "owed" to you you need to get good at your class first.

That being said even before the expansion came out the math showed that minuet and gauss suck ass and I feel for you since you miss out on 3 skills...that's it. I have no sympathy for your damage complaints. But losing new skills and not having a meaningfully better rotation is something that should be addressed.

[Geologo]

in my opinion they should give to the "support" class they ability to do almost the same DPS (maybe just about 10% lower than others full DPS classes) and and nerf them when they are supporting the party, like Mage ballad does, so if you are not supporting your party you are a DPS, like the Party finder say

but anyway I think dev will balace a lot of thinkgs in the next patches XD

[Kitkat]

As a brd, I understand the job is a dps/support hybrid. Brd is the Rdm of FFXIV, but to that extent they added in counters mechanically for exchange of their support. I just feel that with the changes they made to brd with 3.0, some of them are rather counter-intuitive. While mobility is what brd maintained to keep up decently in the overall DPS quarter, we are now exchanging that for a buff to damage by planting ourselves....yet that isn't really a buff over time in exchange to what is given up (e.g., Auto attacks, able to spam OGCDs with new 50% proc rate with ease.). Think SE needs to do a bit more adjusting on this change...cause we actually fell behind another 5~10% behind a real DPS where we already lagged behind 15~18% already.

[Panasync]

....

Your gripes with crappy players really has 0 to do with the issue (go message them). Absolutely nothing. Bad bards probably could give two craps about the damage considering they probably don't even know, if the players that do put effort and time into it comes to the conclusion there are balance issues, it's better to state them then to let them sit in a sorry state. Nobody wants to play their job to the highest they can just to get the same kind of output as a crappy player on summoner. Your in-game experience has probably just been DF dungeons and the occasional EX primal until echo is 50% on any of the coils anyways.

The community by and large doesn't have the mindset, "it's possible to win with 9 machinists guyz", rather, "it's inefficient and better use of our resources to use X job because the skill cap needed to get the median output of another job like the recently buffed summoner makes it just not worth it".

[Wishles]

I was trying to cast Keeper's Paeon before a pull on my party but before I could finish the last person, the buff had already wore off on the first. GREAT SUPPORT SKILL, THANKS!

[Syzygian]

Lets put it this way, if BRDs and MCNs could do comparable single target damage to Melee DPS, who would ever bring a Melee DPS? They're at the highest risk to die, and have less utility (They have utility but they are more luxuries rather than necessities.)

[Underdog2204]

Snip

Oh pls be quiet...

We know what we are doing, who are you to judge over a forum that we have no idea how to play the jobs? You have no right to make this assumption whatsoever.

We are here becasue we know how to play them and are still not happy with what we are given -_-

Why should I cast Foe? You don't actually need it... What if the healer dies and I have no mp regen to give because you wanted (not needed) beefed damage? You'll get it on burn phases or if I think we'll be cool with it up not "just coz"... Again we are not your personal buff bot... The songs do not have 100% upkeep, they cost mana... We have to sustain it just like you do. The only difference is we don't get any regen skills for it.

You'll get Foe's and Ballad when I say, not when you want... Now stop crying and cast Eye for and Eye and Virus once in a while -_-

Oh and why do I get casters and healers asking for Ballad before the fight has even begun? It works both ways, you are not all perfect.

Saying casting Foe's is the answer to all BRD's problems is a joke, I would like to know any other job that requires constant resource draining to have "meh" damage.

Since when do trash players have the audacity to call others out? Especially if they think they know how to player job.

Since people try to justify themselves using the stupid "hur dur l2p" excuse -_-

Again, assumptions and I will call you out on it. Or is it ok for someone to assume (and post) I suck but not for me to call it bs? The double standard is amazing...

Assume "trash player" or not there is nothing in my counter that was untrue, it was not simply "oh you must just suck for reasons, shut up and give me a damage boost!". Keep thinking it though if it makes you feel better...

I could just as easily assume the summoner above is one of those who constantly lets DoT's fall off and spam ruin 2 like it's deepz... Or you are one of those THM that thinks Umbral ice is awesome because you getz to be an ice mage... But I won't because I have the common sense to realise that most people who look at the forum would have grasped how to play their jobs.

So I call out your own BS post :P

Not sure why any group would have more than 1 support dps but I promise you 4 good mcs could so it easily. ( my static 7 maned it when our blm went afk ...)

I do think brd is a little on the low side atm but we'll have to wait and see what the raids are like and what other dps will be capable of on average in these raids. Wanderers minuet needs to be insta cast like clerics stance at the very least....and at this time would be a reasonable request us brds could make to se.

"Good MCH" is not something you can apply as easily as you can with other jobs, it requires a huge amount of luck to do the basic combo consistantly.

You can know all your skills but it's not the same as knowing your skills on any other job. No matter what they all have guarenteed combo's all the time, MCH doesn't have that.

Now the RNG aspect is unique and could be kinda cool, but it seem weighted to screw you over consistantly atm. Like when you try and gather with 70% sucess rate, I bet you fail more than 30% of them xD

Skill doesn't come into play much when you are faced with a situation like this.

Pls stop saying "support dps" though... If this was the case MCH woud never get taken over a BRD... It doesn't exist, if it did it would need it's own specified slot in groups. Even then it would be BRD's only since the only reason they are classed as "support" by people is their songs. MCH has only 2 of these that are lower potency, totally static and low range...

I dunno why put them both in the same basket...

Lets put it this way, if BRDs and MCNs could do comparable single target damage to Melee DPS, who would ever bring a Melee DPS? They're at the highest risk to die, and have less utility (They have utility but they are more luxuries rather than necessities.)

Because they bring their own utility... It's not hard to understand... You would bring a DRG for it's debuffs, party buffs (yes you have them) and damage dealing. How is that different than doing the same for BRD? I like how it's always "my utility is not needed at all, BRD's have regen and that is totally needed all the time!"... Pfft who doesn't bring a dragoon for dismbowl and +15% crit buff?

Parties are quite happy not to take any of the "support dps" with them... So their utility is more necessary than yours how exactly?

Oh right... They arn't... Bringing a Dragoon for all of these reasons and saying the only reason to bring a BRD is for songs is disgustingly hypocritical.

You are no more "at risk" over any ranged job... I would argue even less so.

Underdog, I am a bit disappointed with your stance of "why should I sing Foe's for you?". You are part of a team, your class was given those skills to use for your teammates. You say, as a whim/sch/smn I should be using virus and e4e, then I say you should be aware of my dots remaining duration and throw foe's up when it's close to time for me to refresh them and then turn it off. You could even make a macro to shout that you are putting it up and will have it going for say 10 seconds so get your dots refreshed. There are terrible players out there, elitist attitudes included.

Urm I never said that... Don't quote me for something I never said...

I think you will find I said I will use it when I believe it's ok to do so, not just because you demand it from me tyvm... You people... It's more than I can say for most Summoner who never use those skills, I mean you were given them for you to use and assist your group, I am slightly dissapointed in your attitude that because you have been reminded that you have them you expect to have uber special treatment from everyone else in your group just for using them.... Urm... Whatever....

Elitist no, condesending probably.

Hypocrisy, lies and being spoken to like a child tends to get that reaction from me.

[Uninstall]

Shut the hell up...

We know what we are doing, who are you to judge over a forum that we have no idea how to play the jobs? You have no right to make this assumption whatsoever.

We are here becasue we know how to play them and are still not happy with what we are given -_-

Why should I cast Foe? You don't actually need it... What if the healer dies and I have no mp regen to give because you wanted (not needed) beefed damage. You'll get it on burn phases and the like not "just coz"... Again we are not your personal buff bot -_-

Pfft you get Foe's when I say not when you want... Now stop crying and cast Eye for and Eye once in a while -_-

Since when do trash players have the audacity to call others out? Especially if they think they know how to player job.

[Viar]

4 MCH extremes? Probably possible. Learn to play your class better, esp if it does less damage than usual.

Show me how 4 MCH would destroy Ravana EX's *stoneskin* in time. Like, seriously, show me.

You know how many bards I see complain about their dps being lower, but then never cast foes?

They suck, news at eleven.

The ones that open with ballad and leave it up all the time?

I had to do it once before the changes. You know why? The tank couldn't hold aggro with my meager un-buffed AoE damage, and QS were on CD. I had to intentionally lower my damage output to avoid wipes. Most of the time, yes, just bad BRD's.

The ones that jump around aimlessly and then complain they need to stand still?

They don't understand the job.

I have never seen a bard cast foes in a dungeon without me asking for it.

See above. 90% of BRD's suck.

It isn't that your arguments don't hold water, its that regardless of what you feel is "owed" to you you need to get good at your class first.

See, I'm told by my FC healers that I'm pretty much the best BRD they've run stuff with. One of them is rather strict in her opinion of others' skills. And I feel that there are problems with wanderer's minuet as it is. Not about movement, no.

That being said even before the expansion came out the math showed that minuet and gauss suck ass and I feel for you since you miss out on 3 skills...that's it. I have no sympathy for your damage complaints. But losing new skills and not having a meaningfully better rotation is something that should be addressed.

A DPS stance should increase damage, plain as a day. I like the idea, but the actual implementation leaves hopes for better.