The argument"MCH/Bard have utility so their damage should be lower"

[pandabearcat]

It doesn't matter whether you should or should not do less damage.

Either you do less damage or you don't.

Either your utility is enough for a raid to bring you or it isn't.

If its the former, then the argument is pointless. You have a spot in a raid whether or not your dps is as high as other classes.

If it is the latter, then things will get fixed.

Bout time you just went and played the game.

I'm fairly certain there is nothing out right now that you cannot beat with good players, regardless of the comp you bring.

4 MCH extremes? Probably possible. Learn to play your class better, esp if it does less damage than usual.

You know how many bards I see complain about their dps being lower, but then never cast foes? The ones that open with ballad and leave it up all the time? The ones that jump around aimlessly and then complain they need to stand still? Why? I have never seen a bard cast foes in a dungeon without me asking for it.

It isn't that your arguments don't hold water, its that regardless of what you feel is "owed" to you you need to get good at your class first.

That being said even before the expansion came out the math showed that minuet and gauss suck ass and I feel for you since you miss out on 3 skills...that's it. I have no sympathy for your damage complaints. But losing new skills and not having a meaningfully better rotation is something that should be addressed.

[Panasync]

....

Your gripes with crappy players really has 0 to do with the issue (go message them). Absolutely nothing. Bad bards probably could give two craps about the damage considering they probably don't even know, if the players that do put effort and time into it comes to the conclusion there are balance issues, it's better to state them then to let them sit in a sorry state. Nobody wants to play their job to the highest they can just to get the same kind of output as a crappy player on summoner. Your in-game experience has probably just been DF dungeons and the occasional EX primal until echo is 50% on any of the coils anyways.

The community by and large doesn't have the mindset, "it's possible to win with 9 machinists guyz", rather, "it's inefficient and better use of our resources to use X job because the skill cap needed to get the median output of another job like the recently buffed summoner makes it just not worth it".

[Underdog2204]

Snip

Oh pls be quiet...

We know what we are doing, who are you to judge over a forum that we have no idea how to play the jobs? You have no right to make this assumption whatsoever.

We are here becasue we know how to play them and are still not happy with what we are given -_-

Why should I cast Foe? You don't actually need it... What if the healer dies and I have no mp regen to give because you wanted (not needed) beefed damage? You'll get it on burn phases or if I think we'll be cool with it up not "just coz"... Again we are not your personal buff bot... The songs do not have 100% upkeep, they cost mana... We have to sustain it just like you do. The only difference is we don't get any regen skills for it.

You'll get Foe's and Ballad when I say, not when you want... Now stop crying and cast Eye for and Eye and Virus once in a while -_-

Oh and why do I get casters and healers asking for Ballad before the fight has even begun? It works both ways, you are not all perfect.

Saying casting Foe's is the answer to all BRD's problems is a joke, I would like to know any other job that requires constant resource draining to have "meh" damage.

Since when do trash players have the audacity to call others out? Especially if they think they know how to player job.

Since people try to justify themselves using the stupid "hur dur l2p" excuse -_-

Again, assumptions and I will call you out on it. Or is it ok for someone to assume (and post) I suck but not for me to call it bs? The double standard is amazing...

Assume "trash player" or not there is nothing in my counter that was untrue, it was not simply "oh you must just suck for reasons, shut up and give me a damage boost!". Keep thinking it though if it makes you feel better...

I could just as easily assume the summoner above is one of those who constantly lets DoT's fall off and spam ruin 2 like it's deepz... Or you are one of those THM that thinks Umbral ice is awesome because you getz to be an ice mage... But I won't because I have the common sense to realise that most people who look at the forum would have grasped how to play their jobs.

So I call out your own BS post :P

Not sure why any group would have more than 1 support dps but I promise you 4 good mcs could so it easily. ( my static 7 maned it when our blm went afk ...)

I do think brd is a little on the low side atm but we'll have to wait and see what the raids are like and what other dps will be capable of on average in these raids. Wanderers minuet needs to be insta cast like clerics stance at the very least....and at this time would be a reasonable request us brds could make to se.

"Good MCH" is not something you can apply as easily as you can with other jobs, it requires a huge amount of luck to do the basic combo consistantly.

You can know all your skills but it's not the same as knowing your skills on any other job. No matter what they all have guarenteed combo's all the time, MCH doesn't have that.

Now the RNG aspect is unique and could be kinda cool, but it seem weighted to screw you over consistantly atm. Like when you try and gather with 70% sucess rate, I bet you fail more than 30% of them xD

Skill doesn't come into play much when you are faced with a situation like this.

Pls stop saying "support dps" though... If this was the case MCH woud never get taken over a BRD... It doesn't exist, if it did it would need it's own specified slot in groups. Even then it would be BRD's only since the only reason they are classed as "support" by people is their songs. MCH has only 2 of these that are lower potency, totally static and low range...

I dunno why put them both in the same basket...

Lets put it this way, if BRDs and MCNs could do comparable single target damage to Melee DPS, who would ever bring a Melee DPS? They're at the highest risk to die, and have less utility (They have utility but they are more luxuries rather than necessities.)

Because they bring their own utility... It's not hard to understand... You would bring a DRG for it's debuffs, party buffs (yes you have them) and damage dealing. How is that different than doing the same for BRD? I like how it's always "my utility is not needed at all, BRD's have regen and that is totally needed all the time!"... Pfft who doesn't bring a dragoon for dismbowl and +15% crit buff?

Parties are quite happy not to take any of the "support dps" with them... So their utility is more necessary than yours how exactly?

Oh right... They arn't... Bringing a Dragoon for all of these reasons and saying the only reason to bring a BRD is for songs is disgustingly hypocritical.

You are no more "at risk" over any ranged job... I would argue even less so.

Underdog, I am a bit disappointed with your stance of "why should I sing Foe's for you?". You are part of a team, your class was given those skills to use for your teammates. You say, as a whim/sch/smn I should be using virus and e4e, then I say you should be aware of my dots remaining duration and throw foe's up when it's close to time for me to refresh them and then turn it off. You could even make a macro to shout that you are putting it up and will have it going for say 10 seconds so get your dots refreshed. There are terrible players out there, elitist attitudes included.

Urm I never said that... Don't quote me for something I never said...

I think you will find I said I will use it when I believe it's ok to do so, not just because you demand it from me tyvm... You people... It's more than I can say for most Summoner who never use those skills, I mean you were given them for you to use and assist your group, I am slightly dissapointed in your attitude that because you have been reminded that you have them you expect to have uber special treatment from everyone else in your group just for using them.... Urm... Whatever....

Elitist no, condesending probably.

Hypocrisy, lies and being spoken to like a child tends to get that reaction from me.

[Uninstall]

Shut the hell up...

We know what we are doing, who are you to judge over a forum that we have no idea how to play the jobs? You have no right to make this assumption whatsoever.

We are here becasue we know how to play them and are still not happy with what we are given -_-

Why should I cast Foe? You don't actually need it... What if the healer dies and I have no mp regen to give because you wanted (not needed) beefed damage. You'll get it on burn phases and the like not "just coz"... Again we are not your personal buff bot -_-

Pfft you get Foe's when I say not when you want... Now stop crying and cast Eye for and Eye once in a while -_-

Since when do trash players have the audacity to call others out? Especially if they think they know how to player job.

[Sessurea]

Oh pls be quiet....

A bard HAS to sing foe to compensate it's lower dps. You should absolutely sing foe + batte voice right at the start of a fight. You are in fact a casters buff bot. Just like a white mage is a heal bot.......just like a tank is a ....tank..

If a healer needs mana regen before bards mp has regained after the initial foe then disband party.

brd and mcn are "support dps". Now more than ever. You might wanna get used to that...rip your manic ego I guess xd

[Kitkat]

There are a couple issues with how they made changes that aren't exactly meshing out in the long run like they should. SE made DoT's affected by Skill Speed since otherwise it was a nearly useless state for a brd to have, period (yes I realize this was across the board, but I'm trying to remain on topic specifically here). If done right, WM should compensate for the loss of Auto Attacks with increased DoTs potency base and tick/cycle by gearing with SS in the mix. On top of this, they increased the PROC of blood letter reset from 20% to 50%, and made RoD similar, so that while in WM stance there is a viable and spammable AoE option available. Overall, this should make up for the pitfalls of using WM, but they don't because of the inability to activate them during casting bar.

Now, there are a couple ways of correcting this so that the unforseen pitfalls aren't as bad, but it really depends on what SE decides to do - if anything (sorry, past has shown me since 1.0 that there are times where SE will hold firm on their decisions regardless of the playerbase). Keep in mind, I don't pretend to be a programmer of games so don't know if some of these would even be possible, but these are just various options in order to give bard back the damage they lost with changes, without making them too strong and overtaking straight DPS Jobs. Remember, the point is to bring brds at least up to around 1000~1100 DPS in ideal situations while other DPS still maintain 1200-1400 range.

A.) Increase damage buff of WM to DoTs and add additional Tick/duration.: A flat increase of the buff will go a long way. This will allow for DoTs to not only continue to add to overall output, but also compensate for the loss of Auto Attacks - currently this is not happening. Over all, it barely makes up for the loss of Auto Attacks let alone adds additional damage like DoTs used to pre3.0 and out of stance.

B.) Lower total cast time, or independent cool down while under WM (making abilities easier to weave): Currently the cast time on top of the reuse timer of Cool Down is being very counter-intuitive. With how E. Arrow is set up, it is easy to go from using Straight Shot and weave over into E. Arrow because we aren't still waiting for it to reset. Perhaps make it so all abilities normally on GCD function like this (Cool Downs become independent of all other abilities, but have a Cast bar to use).

C.) Make it easier to use Blood letter/Rain of Death while under WM: Currently, despite having a 50% PROC reset on these abilities when DoTs are on, it is impossible to fully utilize them while still utilizing other attacks. Make it so that these remain usable actions during Casting and that using them interrupts casting in order to use the PROC'd ability.

These are some ideas I've thought of that could potentially increase brd damage without making them too powerful being as they are meant to be a hybrid class at the core. Pardon if it doesn't make too much sense, I've recently finished a 16 1/2 shift and I'm a bit tired leaving some of the explanations either lacking or not being too coherent.

[Syzygian]

Because they bring their own utility... It's not hard to understand... You would bring a DRG for it's debuffs, party buffs (yes you have them) and damage dealing. How is that different than doing the same for BRD? I like how it's always "my utility is not needed at all, BRD's have regen and that is totally needed all the time!"... Pfft who doesn't bring a dragoon for dismbowl and +15% crit buff?

Parties are quite happy not to take any of the "support dps" with them... So their utility is more necessary than yours how exactly?

Oh right... They arn't... Bringing a Dragoon for all of these reasons and saying the only reason to bring a BRD is for songs is disgustingly hypocritical.

You are no more "at risk" over any ranged job... I would argue even less so.

You're getting extremely salty about something that you really should be happy about. Ranged support DPS jobs have their place in the balance of the game.

You didn't finish reading what I was posting. All non-BRD/MCN utilities are really luxuries, not necessities. You NEED party-wide TP/MP regen to get through 90% of the endgame content that has been in this game thus far. When was the last time you ever saw a wipe blamed on the lack of a Mantra or Trick Attack? Never. Dragon Kick maybe, but that was really only ever in the case of world/server 1st t13 progression and now its irrelevant since that debuff is no longer exclusive to MNK. Even Mr. Happy's group didn't have a MNK (they sure as hell had a BRD though). That being said, almost any party mechanic is a group effort and if you're playing with people that are not managing their TP/MP properly, that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

Melee DPS are absolutely more at risk since they are required to favor the most hazardous area of any encounter, that is, within melee range of the boss, to do top DPS. Moreover their DPS halts the second a mechanic requires them to move away, whereas yours keeps on truckin'. Literally the only exception I can think of to this rule is bosses with programmed, targeted mechanics at ranged DPS, such as T7. The freedom of movement you have while not being magnetically drawn back to one spot is a huge benefit.

But all of this is irrelevant anyway, since if you play a BRD or MCN and did any research before choosing to main that job, you know you're playing a support class. MCN are new, so I don't know, but I've seen BRDs do OBSCENE dps. You have a ridiculous number of offensive cooldowns, your DPS stops for next to no mechanic, and your utility is second to none. There are encounters in the game where BRDs can out-DPS melee just because of the sheer number of times a melee DPS may be required to stop and move away. Its crazy that I'm having to compliment the job so highly to argue against you, but its true. And honestly, the fact that you have to -oh god- stop doing sick deepz long enough to lend your party a hand, is really something you should take pride in instead of succumbing to the same toxic attitude so many other DPS have where their damage comes before their own life and the well-being of the party.

You're a support DPS, that's the way squeenix designed it, just go with it, and be the best BRD evar. I don't know how the buffs in heavensward effect this, but this is an argument that predates 3.0. If WM is really THAT bad I'm sure the cries of the players will be heard and they'll fix it somehow just like they've done with every job that was broken.

That being said, you chose to play the job, its not like the hand was dealt to you unfairly or randomly. If you're the type of person that likes seeing a few big fat numbers on the screen, play BLM. If you like seeing a crap-ton of small numbers, play MNK. You wanna support your party, play BRD. Its all about personality types really. Maybe BRD/MCN is not the job for you.

[Viar]

4 MCH extremes? Probably possible. Learn to play your class better, esp if it does less damage than usual.

Show me how 4 MCH would destroy Ravana EX's *stoneskin* in time. Like, seriously, show me.

You know how many bards I see complain about their dps being lower, but then never cast foes?

They suck, news at eleven.

The ones that open with ballad and leave it up all the time?

I had to do it once before the changes. You know why? The tank couldn't hold aggro with my meager un-buffed AoE damage, and QS were on CD. I had to intentionally lower my damage output to avoid wipes. Most of the time, yes, just bad BRD's.

The ones that jump around aimlessly and then complain they need to stand still?

They don't understand the job.

I have never seen a bard cast foes in a dungeon without me asking for it.

See above. 90% of BRD's suck.

It isn't that your arguments don't hold water, its that regardless of what you feel is "owed" to you you need to get good at your class first.

See, I'm told by my FC healers that I'm pretty much the best BRD they've run stuff with. One of them is rather strict in her opinion of others' skills. And I feel that there are problems with wanderer's minuet as it is. Not about movement, no.

That being said even before the expansion came out the math showed that minuet and gauss suck ass and I feel for you since you miss out on 3 skills...that's it. I have no sympathy for your damage complaints. But losing new skills and not having a meaningfully better rotation is something that should be addressed.

A DPS stance should increase damage, plain as a day. I like the idea, but the actual implementation leaves hopes for better.

[Sessurea]

Show me how 4 MCH would destroy Ravana EX's *stoneskin* in time. Like, seriously, show me.

Not sure why any group would have more than 1 support dps but I promise you 4 good mcs could so it easily. ( my static 7 maned it when our blm went afk ...)

I do think brd is a little on the low side atm but we'll have to wait and see what the raids are like and what other dps will be capable of on average in these raids. Wanderers minuet needs to be insta cast like clerics stance at the very least....and at this time would be a reasonable request us brds could make to se.

[Viar]

Not sure why any group would have more than 1 support dps but I promise you 4 good mcs could so it easily. ( my static 7 maned it when our blm went afk ...)

I do think brd is a little on the low side atm but we'll have to wait and see what the raids are like and what other dps will be capable of on average in these raids. Wanderers minuet needs to be insta cast like clerics stance at the very least....

Cool. Vid of that. Not for me, for raging BRD's and MCH's. (pun absolutely intended)

I think Krietor's probably right about gear affecting BRD's and MCH's much more than any other job. There are 3 more ilvl jumps in the nearest future, and quite possibly one more.