Machinist needs serious attention

[SayuriHime]

Major fights have considerable movement. This will effect everyone's numbers. Parsing standing still does not reflect how the jobs will play out in a raid setting.

[Zyrusticae]

Major fights have considerable movement. This will effect everyone's numbers. Parsing standing still does not reflect how the jobs will play out in a raid setting.

Well, yeah, this is assumed. We all know that training dummy parses don't represent how jobs will perform in a raid. Or at least, I'd hope we would...

The sad thing is, with GB and WM being what they are, BRD and MCH DPS is practically guaranteed to be worse in a raid setting, especially if they buff both stances down the line and make it a requirement. They'd have to have ENORMOUS bonuses to compensate for the loss of auto attacks and BLM-style casting interruptions.

[Ramath]

I'm still at a loss as to why BRD and MCN are being accepted as lowest dps in a party composition. BRD and MCN still take up a DPS slot. Shouldn't they be expected to pull their share of the DPS responsibility?

"BRD and MCN can buff the other DPS in the party."
-Well, sure, but doesn't DRG and WAR do the same thing? BRD gets a penalty for buffing others by lowering their own. MCN can only do it for 15 sec out of 90. DRG keeps theirs up 100% (ideally.) MNK can boost healing effectiveness for the party. NIN can boost damage for the party for a time, as well with Trick Attack.

"BRD and MCN can always attack and don't have to stop moving."
-Neither does my DRG... Yes, I know I'm limited to melee range, but having cleared T1-13 on my DRG, having to stay out of range during times when the boss was still targetable and attackable was EXTREMELY rare. With two different gap-closeres, my DRG never stopped hitting. Besides, my SMN is able to keep up an extremely high percentage of its damage while on the move, as well. Not to mention the fact that, guess what, BRD and MCN have to stop moving now, too, for WM and GB.

"MCN has so many other abilities to affect the fight."
-In theory, but not in practical application. Almost every boss in the game is immune to stun, silence, knockback, heavy, and bind. That's five of our abilities we can't use in a boss fight, and almost all of our utility. Sure, we get a defensive cooldown that nerfs the boss, but so does SMN...

"BRD and MCH can give tp/mp to other classes."
-So can NIN. On top of that, I was always expected to manage my own TP as DRG and MP as SMN. Yes, our BRD was there to sing for our healers, but since when does that increase our DPS? The times when our BRD played a TP song to help regen the TP of a DPS who died, it never increased my ability to deal damage as my DRG. Having to stop dealing damage to help a party member, sure, that sounds 100% logical. But when I'm not helping my healers, why am I still sitting at the bottom of the list, undisputed?


Yes, BRD and MCN are different from the other DPS, as they should be. I don't expect every job to play the same. I DO expect, however, that every role be able to perform on the same level. All healers should be able to keep their party alive. All tanks should be able to survive getting their face smashed in. All DPS should be able to keep up their share of the required DPS checks.

The days of MMO's being filled with large, open-world bosses with the ranged DPS standing up on a rock to height-mitigate damage, are gone. No longer do the melee have to constantly 'joust' to avoid constant spam of 360-degree AoEs. Why are we still treating ranged DPS like this? Having played both ranged, caster, and melee dps in T1-13, the argument that the backline has to move less is complete garbage. I had to move MORE as a BLM and SMN than I ever did as a DRG.

So, why are we okay with DRG and SMN parsing extremely high, while BRD and MCN parse so much lower?
Outside of giving MP to our beloved healers, why should we be allowed to attend raids?

[Gamer3427]

They'd have to have ENORMOUS bonuses to compensate for the loss of auto attacks and BLM-style casting interruptions.

With MCH at least, you only have three attacks that you have to worry about being interrupted with GB on. Split Shot, your basic attack, Hot Shot, your weak damage buff, and and Lead Shot, your DoT. Both Hot Shot and Lead Shot you only have to worry about once every thirty seconds. Which means the biggest concern in this regard is Split Shot. You don't have to worry about anything else, because they're all OGC with the exception of Slug Shot and Clean Shot. And those two don't have the cast time if you use them as part of the combo, only if you use them individually, which you never have reason to since the combo of Split Shot and Slug Shot does more damage than the combo of Slug Shot and Clean Shot. Because of this, as well as proper use of Rapid Fire, (which completely negates the cast time for three attacks in a row), using GB doesn't leave you with that much of a risk of interruption. It just makes it so that your attacks come at the end of the recast timer with those three attacks, rather than the beginning. The only real downside is the lack of Auto Attack for the most part......

That being said, I still only use GB when I'm in situations that don't require a lot of dodging, or when I'm wanting to do as much damage as possible while Wildfire is up. I imagine the interruption poses more of a risk to BRDs than it does MCHs honestly.......

[LittleArrow]

-snip-

Thank you so much for this. I try to explain this everytime and I end up tripping over my own tongue and get frustrated hearing other people arguing ridiculous semantics.

[Ramath]

Thank you so much for this. I try to explain this everytime and I end up tripping over my own tongue and get frustrated hearing other people arguing ridiculous semantics.

Yup. I really wish SE would simply address the issue.

[Velhart]

Yup. I really wish SE would simply address the issue.

Either we get the WAR 2.1 treatment, or we wait till Patch 3.3 and they increase the potency of Split Shot by 10. >_>

[Kahnom]

Just before 3.0 EA hit,i've planed to get 1 of dex-user become my 3rd main job.NIN is out of the question since i've suffered mundra lag so the choices i have left are Brd or MCN.And then I ran into this thread .. Guess i should go with Brd .. After my 2nd main job reach lv 60 ...

[Quixotica]

Yup. I really wish SE would simply address the issue.

Or re-embrace true support classes as a thing. I really hate the fact they just dropped the entire concept of a true support role, support was such a fun thing to do in FFXI be it buffing your party or debuffing the enemy. It makes the game rather bland having homogenized everything under the holy trinity of tank, healer, dps.

Bard should have been a dedicated support job, able to deal damage but primarily focused on buffing and debuffing while something else was the ranged dps evolution of archer. Ranger perhaps.

[Ramath]

With MCH at least, you only have three attacks that you have to worry about being interrupted with GB on. Split Shot, your basic attack, Hot Shot, your weak damage buff, and and Lead Shot, your DoT. Both Hot Shot and Lead Shot you only have to worry about once every thirty seconds. Which means the biggest concern in this regard is Split Shot. You don't have to worry about anything else, because they're all OGC with the exception of Slug Shot and Clean Shot. And those two don't have the cast time if you use them as part of the combo, only if you use them individually, which you never have reason to since the combo of Split Shot and Slug Shot does more damage than the combo of Slug Shot and Clean Shot. Because of this, as well as proper use of Rapid Fire, (which completely negates the cast time for three attacks in a row), using GB doesn't leave you with that much of a risk of interruption. It just makes it so that your attacks come at the end of the recast timer with those three attacks, rather than the beginning. The only real downside is the lack of Auto Attack for the most part......

That being said, I still only use GB when I'm in situations that don't require a lot of dodging, or when I'm wanting to do as much damage as possible while Wildfire is up. I imagine the interruption poses more of a risk to BRDs than it does MCHs honestly.......

Except for the fact that our Split Shot doesn't proc Slug Shot anywhere close to 50%. Meaning, we are spending, in real application, a LOT of time spamming the ability that can be interrupted. It's bad enough that Slug Shot only proc's 1 in every 239485293458723945872394583294587239457823945432987, but now we'll get even less when you include the Split Shots lost by movement.