Game population by the numbers.

[Shelia]

Are you perchance saying that the warhammer online and age of conan devs didn't do whatever they could to pull off the best product they could?

Yes, I am. lol
I played AoC on the day it launched... and it was awful. Completely full of bugs. Almost every NPC glitches, I fell through the floor several times, and occasionally there would be a glitch with things like looting. The game was far from polished, and there's no excuse for releasing a game that was so blatantly bug-ridden. Warhammer didn't have any obvious bugs to speak of... but the content definitely wasn't there.

Both developers delayed the released of their games multiple times (two for WAR, Three for AoC), and put all their resources into both games.
Both development teams were composed by extremely passionate individuals and very talented artist/programmers/directors and all. There's no reason to believe that they are in any way inferior to ArenaNet.

Dude, just because launches were delayed doesn't mean they were spending that time developing. =\
If you played either game at release, you'd know what I was talking about. Age of Conan was definitely rushed.. the amount of bugs I witnessed within my first day of playing was atrocious. Warhammer just had the misfortune of lacking basic content and things it said it would have, and being overshadowed by other games (much like XIV).

Past games and talent isn't all that's necessary to release a successful game, the factors that come into play are extremely complex, and publishers ARE a factor (EA influenced the release of warhammer online quite badly).

Yes, but you also fail to realize EA pretty much chokes every series to death... lol
They tend to have much more of a vice-grip on their products than most publishers do.

I never mentioned past games/talent as being a factor, either (although it might help in the development process). I just stated that I think ArenaNet is doing the right thing by pacing themselves with their product.

[Abriael]

Yes, I am. lol
I played AoC on the day it launched... and it was awful. Completely full of bugs. Almost every NPC glitches, I fell through the floor several times, and occasionally there would be a glitch with things like looting. The game was far from polished, and there's no excuse for releasing a game that was so blatantly bug-ridden. Warhammer didn't have any obvious bugs to speak of... but the content definitely wasn't there.

The description you make Reminds me a lot of Guild wars 1 at launch (and yes, I played both at launch, because I was hyped about them as much as you are hyped about GW2, and I learned from that error).

Dude, just because launches were delayed doesn't mean they were spending that time developing. =\

And what do you think they were doing? playing wow? secretely watching porn? come on.

If you played either game at release, you'd know what I was talking about. Age of Conan was definitely rushed.. the amount of bugs I witnessed within my first day of playing was atrocious. Warhammer just had the misfortune of lacking basic content and things it said it would have, and being overshadowed by other games (much like XIV).

Rushed games have a lot to do with that danger i told before. Biting more than you can chew. All developers have to draw a line (or even more, publishers draw that line for them) on when a game has to start generating a revenue.
The fact that ArenaNet didn't announce a release date doesn't mean that NCsoft is going to fund them forever. A release will have to come, as the "it's ready when it's ready" is just a nice marketing catchphrase.
The true one is "it'll be ready when the publisher says so".

Developers don't rush game because they want to rush them. They rush games because their "grand plan" included more stuff that they could get accomplished, and/or because the publisher rushed them.

Yes, but you also fail to realize EA pretty much chokes every series to death... lol
They tend to have much more of a vice-grip on their products than most publishers do.

Aside from the fact that EA has released some quality game in the last few years, NCsoft's fame isn't much better. Remember Tabula rasa. Even there NCsoft was just the publisher and Richard Garriot wasn't exactly a newbie of the industry.

[Skeeter]

The fact we're talking about all these other games and not 14 is pretty much all that needs to be said.

[Abriael]

The fact we're talking about all these other games and not 14 is pretty much all that needs to be said.

People going to a forum dedicated to one game to tell how much they're waiting for other games (or how they like other games more) is pretty much a staple of the internet, and it happens on every forum dedicated to any game (including very successful ones like wow).

Some call it trolling.

[Shelia]

The description you make Reminds me a lot of Guild wars 1 at launch.

Which is funny, because I didn't experience any problems with GW1 at launch. Been playing for years. Only problem I ever had was with a couple patches near launch. :>

And what do you think they were doing? playing wow? secretely watching porn? come on.

Obviously they weren't refining their product if release for AoC was so terrible... They we're probably creating marketing ideas for launch or solving large-scale problems like networking.

Rushed games have a lot to do with that danger i told before. Biting more than you can chew. All developers have to draw a line (or even more, publishers draw that line for them) on when a game has to start generating a revenue.
The fact that ArenaNet didn't announce a release date doesn't mean that NCsoft is going to fund them forever. A release will have to come, as the "it's ready when it's ready" is just a nice marketing catchphrase.
The true one is "it'll be ready when the publisher says so".

Again... you fail to recognize ArenaNet as a separate entity from NCsoft. "It's ready when it's ready" may very well be a marketing catchphrase... but if it was, why is that mantra ultimately harming them? In the long-run and short-term it would be easier to toss out a release date to produce even more hype. People have been anticipating this game since it was announced back in 2007/2008, I don't think it does them much good to deny their fans a release date unless they were entirely sure they weren't ready yet.

Developers don't rush game because they want to rush them. They rush games because their "grand plan" included more stuff that they could get accomplished, and/or because the publisher rushed them.

This still isn't an excuse for obvious glitches that should've been covered in alpha. lol

Besides, if we're talking XIV here... SE had more than enough money to continue development for several more months before launch and kept a gigantic disaster from happening.

Aside from the fact that EA has released some quality game in the last few years, NCsoft's fame isn't much better. Remember Tabula rasa. Even there NCsoft was just the publisher and Richard Garriot wasn't exactly a newbie of the industry.

... ArenaNet had absolutely no part in Tabula Rasa whatsoever. Why are you bringing it up? lol

That's like me comparing Kayne and Lynch to XIV. There's pretty much no relation there, aside from the fact that they were both published by the same company.



Anyway, I'm pretty much done debating this... lol

I (almost) feel bad for derailing the OP's thread.

[Abriael]

Which is funny, because I didn't experience any problems with GW1 at launch. Been playing for years. Only problem I ever had was with a couple patches near launch. :>

Quite evidently our experience differs.

Obviously they weren't refining their product if release for AoC was so terrible... They we're probably creating marketing ideas for launch or solving large-scale problems like networking.

Ahem, the development team for AOC was, prior to launch, quite big (actually bigger than ArenaNet). Marketing is handled by the marketing department, networking is handled by the networking department. Everyone else was doing their job. They were refining the game, but there always are things that due to time and resources cannot be handled, and on top of that there always are problems that are initially not noticed and underrated until they rear they ugly head when the game impacts against the launch population.

A lot of the problems that happened during the launch of AOC weren't really visible during the beta.

Again... you fail to recognize ArenaNet as a separate entity from NCsoft. "It's ready when it's ready" may very well be a marketing catchphrase... but if it was, why is that mantra ultimately harming them? In the long-run and short-term it would be easier to toss out a release date to produce even more hype. People have been anticipating this game since it was announced back in 2007/2008, I don't think it does them much good to deny their fans a release date unless they were entirely sure they weren't ready yet.

NCsoft provides the funding and investment as a publisher (and due to that they take most of the strategic marketing decisions). Being a separate entity doesn't change this very clear fact. This means that as soon as NCsoft and the investors decide that the game needs to start generating revenue. The game WILL be released, regardless of what ArenaNet thinks of it.
And as soon as that happens, ArenaNet will just say "yes sir!" (because it's how things work between developers and publishers) and rush to try and finish as much as they can. Will it be enough? That's a big IF. I hope so, but hope is just that. Hope.

It's not random that basically every MMORPG that saw the light in the past few years was rushed. Developers find themselves having to push the boundaries more than before to try and compete with what's already in the market (and that already provides polish and content in abundant quantities) and they simply cannot keep up with all they promised and planned to implement before publishers tell them "ok, let's draw the line, i want to see some money back six months from now".

This still isn't an excuse for obvious glitches that should've been covered in alpha. lol

Unfortunately "should have been covered" is a nice thing, but it can'ìt and won't always happen. Many bugs don't surface until release (because of the difference in server stress for instance), many others simply have to be prioritized, as the time and resources are limited.

Besides, if we're talking XIV here... SE had more than enough money to continue development for several more months before launch and kept a gigantic disaster from happening.

While SE didn't have the separation between publisher and developer, the mechanics are pretty much the same. Marketing decisions such as release dates, funding, resources and timings are taken by the executives of the company, that are a very separate entity from the development team.
Just as with a publisher, when the executives tell the team "it's time", it's time, and it's not unlikely that if the development team tells them "we're not ready", the executives will just tell them "then make it ready".

To be more precise, SE's executives probably put themselves in a bottleneck by making a whole lot of co-marketing deals with Japan's biggest PC manufacturers, that created a whole line of sponsored PCs dedicated to FFXIV (the game moved a crapton of gaming PCs in Japan). Once you do that, you're pretty much forced to release, because you can't really tell people that paid you for to use your brand "sorry, we ain't releasing anymore, so you'll have to wait X months to release your PCs as well".

Was it a bad choice? most definitely. But it's one of the many, many marketing choices in which developers have absolutely no say.

... ArenaNet had absolutely no part in Tabula Rasa whatsoever. Why are you bringing it up? lol

Tabula Rasa was another MMORPG developed by talented people and published by NCsoft. TR should have been kept off the market for a while more as it was poòished and worked on. NCsoft didn't allow that.
There's no reason to believe that there's no risk that NCSoft would have the same effect on GW2 as they did in Tabula Rasa.

Oh, and one more thing regarding this:

You forget that all of NCsoft's games are developed by NCsoft except City of Heroes and Guild Wars... both of which had decent reception, unlike NCsoft's other titles. I can't explain why/how Richard Gariott failed miserably; he might've been too ambitious with what resources and technology he had at the time.

Tabula Rasa wasn't developed by NCsoft, but by Garriot's own Destination Games that had a publishing deal with NC, exactly like ArenaNet.
Ambition is exactly what I'm talking about when I say "bite more than they can chew". Don't think that ArenaNet is magically immune from it. They have to, as much as everyone else in the market, enter an extremely stagnant and fossilized market, and to do so they need (and have) ambitious plans.

I (almost) feel bad for derailing the OP's thread.

That's what tends to happen when you go to a forum dedicated to a game to advocate competing games. That's another lesson to learn

[Shelia]

Ahem, the development team for AOC was, prior to launch, quite big (actually bigger than ArenaNet). Marketing is handled by the marketing department, networking is handled by the networking department. Everyone else was doing their job.

Just because the team was "big" or "impressive" doesn't mean jack. If you can't utilize it, nothing's gonna happen (which is why the game failed...all bark, no bite).

A lot of the problems that happened during the launch of AOC weren't really visible during the beta.

Yes... Which is why you do an open beta. Most, if not all developers know that an open beta is critical for stress-testing as well as marketing potential. There is almost no excuse for all the issues AoC had upon launch.

Just to get a taste for what I experienced (not my video, unfortunately...hahaha) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyCm8...eature=related

Also, if you'll notice... there's practically endless videos for AoC glitches.

NCsoft provides the funding and investment as a publisher (and due to that they take most of the strategic marketing decisions). Being a separate entity doesn't change this very clear fact. This means that as soon as NCsoft and the investors decide that the game needs to start generating revenue. The game WILL be released, regardless of what ArenaNet thinks of it.

Yes, I understand this... but just because they fund ArenaNet doesn't mean they'll have an impact on what ANet develops content or story-wise. In a way, ArenaNet is the art student, NCsoft is the scholarship (or rich parent).

It's not random that basically every MMORPG that saw the light in the past few years was rushed. Developers find themselves having to push the boundaries more than before to try and compete with what's already in the market (and that already provides polish and content in abundant quantities) and they simply cannot keep up with all they promised and planned to implement before publishers tell them "ok, let's draw the line, i want to see some money back six months from now".

You seem a little optimistic, bud. I'm pretty sure the reason why so many MMOs were rushed while being developed was because everybody wants a slice of the corporate pie after they saw what Blizzard accomplished with WoW. They figure if they can crap out a half-decent product with minimal effort and time that they'll make some profit off of it. Very few MMOs these days are about customer satisfaction and bringing a masterpiece to life. I'm sure some companies were rushed due to your reasonings, but not many. It all comes down to money with most companies.

Unfortunately "should have been covered" is a nice thing, but it can'ìt and won't always happen. Many bugs don't surface until release (because of the difference in server stress for instance), many others simply have to be prioritized, as the time and resources are limited.

Like I said... Stress testing the game is critical for development. The fact that they didn't do that before with AoC is pretty foolish. If they did stress test... how could they not have seen these obvious bugs before?

While SE didn't have the separation between publisher and developer, the mechanics are pretty much the same. Marketing decisions such as release dates, funding, resources and timings are taken by the executives of the company, that are a very separate entity from the development team.
Just as with a publisher, when the executives tell the team "it's time", it's time, and it's not unlikely that if the development team tells them "we're not ready", the executives will just tell them "then make it ready".

I really don't think this was the case. Again, it's money. SE could've afforded to go under development for a little while longer, especially with the feedback they were getting. Any smart corporation would have said "Look, guys, we're getting negative feedback from the beta testers. Maybe we should fix something?" but they didn't.

NCsoft didn't allow that.
There's no reason to believe that there's no risk that NCSoft would have the same effect on GW2 as they did in Tabula Rasa.

No, I believe you are mistaken... Richard Gariott's ideas were a little far-fetched to begin with. It wasn't solely NCsoft's doing. I feel like NCsoft would learn by now considering they bombed almost all their published MMOs aside from City of Heroes and Guild Wars... although the developers are more to thank for their games survival than anything.

Tabula Rasa wasn't developed by NCsoft, but by Garriot's own Destination Games that had a publishing deal with NC, exactly like ArenaNet.
Ambition is exactly what I'm talking about when I say "bite more than they can chew". Don't think that ArenaNet is magically immune from it. They have to, as much as everyone else in the market, enter an extremely stagnant and fossilized market, and to do so they need (and have) ambitious plans.

I never said they were immune to it. Besides, they have a little bit of an edge considering they're doing all of these fantastic ideas... but with slightly lower graphics settings for a newer gen MMO. They aren't going full-throttle with both graphics and dynamics, and they're aware of what they're capable of. The game will still be beautiful, just slightly less of a poly-count than say FFXIV or the new Star Wars MMO.

That's what tends to happen when you go to a forum dedicated to a game to advocate competing games. That's another lesson to learn

I wasn't advocating anything, hun. I just said I'll probably drop FFXIV for GW2 if SE doesn't get their act together.

You replied with a (inaccurate, might I add) smug remark, not me~

Me:

"To be entirely honest, unless SE gets their butts in gear I'm going to completely drop XIV for Guild Wars 2 once it's released."

You:

I'm actually quite amused about people continually flaunting Guild Wars 2. Nothing solid is known about the game, and people are basing their perspectives about it's quality at release on blind faith alone. And considering NCsoft's track record, that's quite a leap of faith.

You can't expect someone to not react to that. :3c

[Abriael]

Just because the team was "big" or "impressive" doesn't mean jack. If you can't utilize it, nothing's gonna happen (which is why the game failed...all bark, no bite).

Knowing personally quite a few of the people working at Funcom, I'd be very hard pressed defining any of them as incompetent (besides Godager, I'd guess, but he wasn't THAT bad).

Yes... Which is why you do an open beta. Most, if not all developers know that an open beta is critical for stress-testing as well as marketing potential. There is almost no excuse for all the issues AoC had upon launch.

They had a stress test. But that's normally not enough. The servers get hammered even more at release, and the fact that there are several servers also adds stress on the whole server cluster.
Finally, when you get to an open beta phase, unfortunately it tends to be too late to fix a lot of problems. All you can do is to do a "triage" deciding what's more and less important, and prioritize some of the fixes in the time you have left and then build up from that after release.

Yes, I understand this... but just because they fund ArenaNet doesn't mean they'll have an impact on what ANet develops content or story-wise. In a way, ArenaNet is the art student, NCsoft is the scholarship (or rich parent).

it's not that simple. In every publishing deal, the publisher does get a say on content, some get more, some less, but influence does exist pretty much always. There's absolutely no company in any commercial field that would put their brand on a product without having a firm say on what that product entails or not.
It's a basic concept of brand management.

more than an art student, ArenaNet is a medieval artist, and NCsoft is the sponsor. If the sponsor wanted the artist to put the face of his wife on the virgin Mary, he did just that.

You seem a little optimistic, bud. I'm pretty sure the reason why so many MMOs were rushed while being developed was because everybody wants a slice of the corporate pie after they saw what Blizzard accomplished with WoW. They figure if they can crap out a half-decent product with minimal effort and time that they'll make some profit off of it. Very few MMOs these days are about customer satisfaction and bringing a masterpiece to life. I'm sure some companies were rushed due to your reasonings, but not many. It all comes down to money with most companies.

And ArenaNet wants a slice of that pie as well

Like I said... Stress testing the game is critical for development. The fact that they didn't do that before with AoC is pretty foolish. If they did stress test... how could they not have seen these obvious bugs before?

They did, but as I said, when you get to open beta, there's no going back. You're too near to release, the boxes are already printed, deals with distributors are already sealed, marketing has been already finalized and is already on magazines and media.
I don't think there has ever been a single game that has been delayed after open beta in the history of MMORPG.

I really don't think this was the case. Again, it's money. SE could've afforded to go under development for a little while longer, especially with the feedback they were getting. Any smart corporation would have said "Look, guys, we're getting negative feedback from the beta testers. Maybe we should fix something?" but they didn't.

It's the case (or at leats part of the reason). It's a fact. The co-marketing deals were visible to anyone that visited a Japanese website or saw relevant Japanese media. FFXIV branded PC advertisement was all over the place several months before release already.
There's absolutely no way you can delay a release with that, because you're bound by deals with third party companies.

No, I believe you are mistaken... Richard Gariott's ideas were a little far-fetched to begin with. It wasn't solely NCsoft's doing. I feel like NCsoft would learn by now considering they bombed almost all their published MMOs aside from City of Heroes and Guild Wars... although the developers are more to thank for their games survival than anything.

Actually the "living" environment ArenaNet is developing is quite ambitious, it could be awesome, but it can go horribly wrong, and it is definitely requiring a ton of development resources to get right. It's actually not too different from the premise of Tabula Rasa and their NPC invasions.

I never said they were immune to it. Besides, they have a little bit of an edge considering they're doing all of these fantastic ideas... but with slightly lower graphics settings for a newer gen MMO. They aren't going full-throttle with both graphics and dynamics, and they're aware of what they're capable of. The game will still be beautiful, just slightly less of a poly-count than say FFXIV or the new Star Wars MMO.

Actually their poly-count looks quite radically lower than FFXIV, and a little higher than that shown so far for the SWTOR one. Just a clarification for the sake of precision.

They are basing their opinions off the fact that Anet, delivered.....continues to deliver, and has no signs of not delivering in the future. That knows how to please a more casual , western, gaming audience.

You mean like Mythic did with DAOC?

Yeah, we're been there already. Past games guarantee nothing. This not to mention that Guild Wars (that actually isn't even a full fledged MMORPG) is much, much simpler and less ambitious than GW2.

Just as DAOC was less ambitious than Warhammer Online (actually the difference is smaller here).