Defensive ability, WAR VS DRK

[TouchandFeel]

^^^
He was responding to another poster and was quoting you to use the example you gave to reinforce his point.
He was not arguing against you as far as I can tell.

[Giantbane]

Convalescence well before hand to increase potency of shield cast on you by healer (As the healer is suppose to do) Foresight to reduce physical damage, Awareness to ensure the hit is not critical. You assume to think that you're using all these skills right when the hit is coming. Again, a sign of a sub par tank. Utilize each one to their fullest by predicting what your party is going to do. Every healer should know to shield for a tank crunch, if your mitigation alone is all you are relying on, then I suggest you find a better healer. What use is Convalescence for mitigating damage after the fact of the damage? None. Utilize it before the damage to boost the preparing skills a healer is suppose to use and suddenly a healing skill becomes a damage mitigating skill.

You're talking raid coordination that the other tanks wouldn't require because they have actual defensive cooldowns to mitigate the damage.

So the other two tanks have abilities that can just deal with the tank buster on their own without the need for healers to have any idea what they're doing. But the DRK requires the healers to be on the ball for that 3rd hit because he can't do anything about it on his own. That doesn't sound very balanced.

What happens when you graduate from PUG level Odin to actual raids that require the tank to pop a strong mitigation ability in addition to healer coordination to handle the really big tank busters? You're not seeing the problem here?

[Giantbane]

Wait, what ?
At what do you actually answer here ?

It seems like we agree that DRK has less mitigation for really frequent tankbusters, but I can't really say for sure.

sorry, TouchandFeel has it right, I was just quoting you to give an example of how the DRK toolset seems lacking vs. frequent physical tank busters.

The rest of the post about the mana and stuff was in reply to Ceodore just listing out a bunch of DRK abilities and saying DRK is ok.

[Ceodore]

You're talking raid coordination that the other tanks wouldn't require because they have actual defensive cooldowns to mitigate the damage.

So the other two tanks have abilities that can just deal with the tank buster on their own without the need for healers to have any idea what they're doing. But the DRK requires the healers to be on the ball for that 3rd hit because he can't do anything about it on his own. That doesn't sound very balanced.

What happens when you graduate from PUG level Odin to actual raids that require the tank to pop a strong mitigation ability in addition to healer coordination to handle the really big tank busters? You're not seeing the problem here?

You're telling me that you DON'T use these skills in such a way to maximize their effect then? It isn't about just having good healers. I don't care what tank you are. If your healers suck, then you're not going to live. So what is the point you are trying to make? That Paladins and Warriors don't need good healers to live? That's idiocy. It's about making what you seem to think impossible, possible. Frankly, it is. Whether one way requires a group to be competent or not is besides the point. If your group sucks, then you being good or bad has no merit anyways. But if the one weak link in the chain is you, then you drag the rest of them down with you because you can't perform.

Also, saying someone graduate from PUG level Odin to a raid that requires a preformed group is actually reversed. A preformed group is going to know what they are doing, thus the healer will actually have talent, and can be more relied on to shield up before a hit and make use of Convalescence to its full potential. This just proves my point. A group of competent players can make what you assume to be hard to instead be a walk in the park by utilizing combinations of skills between them. That also seems to be the direction things may be going too, with Paladins having a new AOE shielding buff, and a heal and Dark Knights having a self heal based on who is about to die.

[Giantbane]

You're telling me that you DON'T use these skills in such a way then? It isn't about just having good healers. I don't care what tank you are. If your healers suck, then you're not going to live. So what is the point you are trying to make? That Paladins and Warriors don't need good healers to live? That's idiocy.

Warriors and Paladins don't need healers to pre-shield them in Odin, no. Their ability set is strong enough as is to handle healers that are just reacting to damage instead of trying to pre-heal/shield for it.

So when you take the already strong ability set of WAR & PLD and then take it in to high level raids with good healers that will coordinate for that sort of thing, then those jobs only get stronger. If the DRK requires good healers to survive on PUG level content like Odin, how are they gonna fare when you move into high level raids where everything hits a lot harder?

It looks a bit like 2.0 WAR vs. PLD. Sure WAR could do all the content that was available if your gear was top of the line and you had really good healers and you worked well together to handle the lack of WAR's innate damage mitigation. Or you could take a PLD and do it much easier. It wasn't balanced and it got fixed.

[Ceodore]

Warriors and Paladins don't need healers to pre-shield them in Odin, no. Their ability set is strong enough as is to handle healers that are just reacting to damage instead of trying to pre-heal/shield for it.

So when you take the already strong ability set of WAR & PLD and then take it in to high level raids with good healers that will coordinate for that sort of thing, then those jobs only get stronger. If the DRK requires good healers to survive on PUG level content like Odin, how are they gonna fare when you move into high level raids where everything hits a lot harder?

It looks a bit like 2.0 WAR vs. PLD. Sure WAR could do all the content that was available if your gear was top of the line and you had really good healers and you worked well together to handle the lack of WAR's innate damage mitigation. Or you could take a PLD and do it much easier. It wasn't balanced and it got fixed.

Well, for one, I never said anything about Balance. I only ever mentioned the capabilities. Of course there is imbalance between the classes. That was, is, and always will be the case, to try to state otherwise would be a fallacy. If SE wants to fix it, then sure, fix it but there will always be imbalance. But as far as I'm concerned, DRK is a great class that makes tanking more challenging and fun. In my case, I don't go to new content on a warrior or a dark knight first. I always go Paladin. Because it's the safe bet. It's the safest choice for simple flat overwhelming mitigation. Then, when I'm comfortable on my Paladin, I take my Warrior, and learn the content in a new way. Then, I'll take my Dark Knight and learn it all over again, for added challenge. There is no "Oh, such and such tank simply CAN'T do such and such content" No, that's not the case. These classes have been hashed out through hours, days, weeks, months of planning and replanning. Their capabilities have been tested ahead of time. They CAN do the content, it's a matter of can you learn how to do it?

[Gooner_iBluAirJGR]

Warriors and Paladins don't need healers to pre-shield them in Odin, no.

Maybe not with Odin but I remember tanking T10 on my warrior before echo and the tank buster in there was packing a mighty strong wallop without a Stoneskin or Adlo.

On another note, they should probably just add some damage reduction to Dark Dance so we can close all these threads and talk about something else. . . like Alphinaud's new jacket.

[Ceodore]

Alphinaud's new jacket.

At the risk of getting off topic... I'd bang that twink when he came of age.

Back on topic, if they decided to add a bit more mitigation to make the class simply easier, that would be fine, and I wouldn't complain or whine that the class is too strong. There are those die hards that would, I'm sure, but I'm not one of them. A change just brings new possibilities to learn and apply. All the new skills for Paladins and Warriors has me giddier than a fat kid with an all you can eat coupon for a candy store.

eye fodder...

[Giantbane]

Well, for one, I never said anything about Balance. I only ever mentioned the capabilities. Of course there is imbalance between the classes. That was, is, and always will be the case, to try to state otherwise would be a fallacy. If SE wants to fix it, then sure, fix it but there will always be imbalance. But as far as I'm concerned, DRK is a great class that makes tanking more challenging and fun. In my case, I don't go to new content on a warrior or a dark knight first. I always go Paladin. Because it's the safe bet. It's the safest choice for simple flat overwhelming mitigation. Then, when I'm comfortable on my Paladin, I take my Warrior, and learn the content in a new way. Then, I'll take my Dark Knight and learn it all over again, for added challenge. There is no "Oh, such and such tank simply CAN'T do such and such content" No, that's not the case. These classes have been hashed out through hours, days, weeks, months of planning and replanning. Their capabilities have been tested ahead of time. They CAN do the content, it's a matter of can you learn how to do it?

PLD & WAR are close enough to balanced. DRK feels like dark arts + dark dance is supposed to essentially be their version of IB in physical situations. By a pure mathematical % mitigation it fills the role, but the randomness really hinders the ability from being good. And that's even if the evasion works at all.

At the risk of getting off topic... I'd bang that twink when he came of age.

Way to make it weird, lol

[Ceodore]

PLD & WAR are close enough to balanced. DRK feels like dark arts + dark dance is supposed to essentially be their version of IB in physical situations. By a pure mathematical % mitigation it fills the role, but the randomness really hinders the ability from being good. And that's even if the evasion works at all.



Way to make it weird, lol

Well, considering the % aspects on so many of their buffs, DRK is probably going to shine more on trash than bosses. Yes, it's bosses where all the tanks want to shine, but with the high number of incoming hits on trash, the buffs will get closer to their real value. I'll admit to this much, I will never turn down buffs to my role. I was and still am ecstatic about all the new skills for my tanks, since that's the role I teach in my FC.

Also, what can I say? He makes me horny... get it... cause I'm an Aura.