Defensive ability, WAR VS DRK

[Hundred]

Drks value is Dark Mind and Deliriums -Int when you don't have a monk. That and Dark Dance's shorter cooldown to something like Bulwark.
Not that it really matters for heavensward current dungeons, all ezpz lemon squeeze and you'll clear regardless, but basically unless Alexander is something with a fair amount of Magical dmg output to put Dark Mind to use, you'd just take a PLD.

[Faytte]

Dark Dance compared to Bulwark is ...painful to hear.

It being up more often almost never matters. Its 30% for 20% reduction. The bulwarks 60% ontop of base block rates is damn near 100% and shields can get over 30% block reduction even with the starting shields at level 60. Thats why bulwark has a much larger cd---cause its ...good.

Dark Dance is a 'maybe' shadow skin, if its parriable, if parry happens.

[Ditto]

Dark Dance is NOTHING like Bulwark. Hell it doesn't even compare to Rampart really, because Dark Dance is RNG, Rampart is constant reduction throughout it's duration. (We all know you're not going to dodge a tank buster so c'mon now)

And as far as Drk vs. War DPS, War pulls ahead as Main Tank still.

Not entirely sure in an OT situation, I myself have reached 600 DPS without Grit while MT even, but that only lasts until I run out of TP, which is incredibly quickly when you're using Blood Weapon. With War offensive buffs (Their better OT utility aside), and their new way to restore their TP (Which a Drk has absolutely no way to), I'm fairly sure Warrior will pull much further ahead in the long run.

As is, Drk offense is 1 big burst until you run out of TP. A burst that a Warrior can likely do better simple due to their own damage buffs, while still maintaining DPS outside of the burst without having to sit on their butt waiting for their TP to regen for as long as a Drk does.

[Faytte]

Snip

Why does a dark run out of tp when a war doesnt? Equilibrium only restores tp in deliverance which you wont be in while MTing in raids.
Maim places a war in defiance at the same effective damage as a Dark (WAr is (1*.75)*1.25=90% of normal. Dark is (1*.80)*1.15=92% of normal.
So whats the argument then, cause berserk is pairing off against the massive (over 2000 or so) free potency of off GCD attacks a Dark has per minute.

None of the Darks Burst costs them TP--so im curious why you think this?

[Hundred]

The actual reason war runs out of tp less is because Inner beast costs no TP, so you spend a GCD gaining TP when you use it.
Granted other things in the war kit are tp expensive if used (fracture/Overpower).

[Faytte]

Erm so....that logic...

Darks aoe uses mana, and IB is nice (doesnt cost tp) but I doubt a Dark is running out of TP while tanking because it lacks IB. As you mentioned, things like warriors overpower counter the tp gains of IB.

[Hundred]

That is correct that Drk Aoe uses mana. I deliberately pointed out that a War will run out of mana if they're pushing for their tp inefficient skills.
In the case of simplying using your Sword combos, Drk would have to use a mana GcD skill to replicate what is a natural effect for warrior, using a tp less gcd spell.

Another way to look at it would be that Drk has less initial tp cost due to building aggro via mana, but more sustained tp useage otherwise.

Could be a wash either way, but War regardless regain TP on every IB.

[Giantbane]

Erm so....that logic...

Darks aoe uses mana, and IB is nice (doesnt cost tp) but I doubt a Dark is running out of TP while tanking because it lacks IB. As you mentioned, things like warriors overpower counter the tp gains of IB.

IB is like getting back ~63ish TP every 9-10 GCD as part of your normal rotation. You can also choose to drop fracture from your rotation if you want to conserve TP for long fights. DRK's only option is to mix in unmend & unleash, which eats at their also precious mana. It gets a little worse when you're out of Grit because blood weapon's haste means faster TP drain with nothing to make up for it.

I've noticed DRKs have TP issues on any fight of moderate length with constant up time. Although, maybe it's not a problem because they *do* have options for skills that don't cost TP.

[Ditto]

Why does a dark run out of tp when a war doesnt? Equilibrium only restores tp in deliverance which you wont be in while MTing in raids.
Maim places a war in defiance at the same effective damage as a Dark (WAr is (1*.75)*1.25=90% of normal. Dark is (1*.80)*1.15=92% of normal.
So whats the argument then, cause berserk is pairing off against the massive (over 2000 or so) free potency of off GCD attacks a Dark has per minute.

None of the Darks Burst costs them TP--so im curious why you think this?

I said in an OT situation, or basically with Grit down, not with it up. With Grit down, you have access to Blood Weapon, which gives you crazy attack speed. You blow your TP through very, very easily. I've only ever ran out of TP a couple of times while tanking with Grit up. It doesn't happen often, but it can definitely still happen. Also, yes, all of our burst comes from TP excluding C&S, which you can only use once every 60 seconds anyway. Within that 60 seconds, you'll be spamming either Delirium, or Souleater if you have the mana for Dark Arts. Power Slash only if you need enmity.

Outside of Grit, with Blood Weapon, it's Dark Arts Souleater over and over and over. Your TP goes very fast.

I've noticed DRKs have TP issues on any fight of moderate length with constant up time. Although, maybe it's not an option because they *do* have options for skills that don't cost TP.

Running out of TP is not an option for us outside of Grit (Assuming I'm understanding what you wrote right), or in a fight with Grit on and 0 downtime between skills. It will happen at some point in prolonged fights, but usually most fights have enough transitions or tiny breaks where you can recover your TP. We have *no* skills that cost mana, and are on our GCD chain that we could use in a similar fashion to the way IB uses a gcd, unless we use Unmend, Unleash, or AByssal Drain, all of which are not worth spending the MP on for a single target. In Unmends case, not worth using once you initialize threat.

In Deliverence, a War should almost never run out of TP anymore.

Also, single target enmity is built using TP, and MP through Dark Arts only if it's needed. MP Enmity is only for AOE.

[Giantbane]

Running out of TP is not an option...

Sorry, derped, i meant to type "problem". No idea why I wrote that.

Maybe it's not a problem because there are alternatives. They're obviously not as good as TP moves, but we are still doing something. As opposed to a WAR who can't do anything but flash a couple times if he's out of TP.