Defensive ability, WAR VS DRK

[Syfer22]

Honestly, the whole "This tank or that tank is bad, or awkward, or weird, or funky" or whatever complaint there is, simply results from a player not being skilled enough with the class to perform. Dark Knight is honestly like a wet dream come true. So many of the erection inducing skills that Paladin and Warriors had have been passed along to this class. Complaints about Living Dead are honestly misguided. The complaint SHOULD be that it shouldn't have come to using Living Dead in the first place. Somewhere along the line, you, or someone in your party screwed the proverbial pooch. This job has so many low cooldown mitigation skills like Warriors, but also some high cooldown big damage reduction skills like Paladins. Then there's their two vampiric skills (Single target AND AOE), INT debuff for magical fights, off GCD skills that can be reset with parry, damage up skills, mp drain, A FLASH THAT DOES DAMAGE, a Flaming Arrow type skill that has a higher DOT potency, A gap closer, and very strong MP recovery skills which include a Riot Blade which recovers more MP than Riot Blade, a cooldown that recovers MP with damage taken on a low CD, and another that increases damage done and recovers MP on a low CD when off tanking. This tank has everything needed to be great, except one thing apparently... players who know how to use it to tank. The job has a lot already, let's wait until actually competent players weigh in on what the class is lacking. As it stands, I don't see much that it's missing.

So in otherwords, because people have concerns, complaints or disagree with you that means they don't know how to play or tank? That's a little bit of a black or white approach.

And you mention that instead of talking about the viability of Living Dead, you're saying it shouldn't have come to that in the first place. So since that's our version of Holmgang/Hallowed Ground, are you saying WARs/PLDs are doing something wrong if they need to use those skills? What about during raid content?

I'm sorry, but... Wow.

[Ceodore]

So in otherwords, because people have concerns, complaints or disagree with you that means they don't know how to play or tank? That's a little bit of a black or white approach.

Not necessarily. People will whine about anything. It's the desire for the "perfect" class. If it were up to me, of course there would be no limiting factor to any skill, and I'd face roll ALL THE CONTENT. But that doesn't make a good game. This class, however, is not actually wanting for anything. Between cross class skills and class skills, there isn't a thing they shouldn't be able to handle. They are already getting the equivalent tank toggle to Paladins, a skill that is EXACTLY like Rampart, one equivalent to Vengeance minus a porcupine effect but Rampart's CD, they also have access to Foresight, Awareness, Convalescence, then they also get a very short cooldown for magic damage. That's three cooldowns for physical damage and three for magical damage, a healing up, and a little fodder to sprinkle on top (Awareness). When it comes to magical attackers, this class will take the cake with Delirium too. No tank yet can shine so well against magical enemies, and they still don't lack when it comes to physical. How anyone can find any faults in this job's capabilities is beyond me. The likely case is they are simply bad at playing the job.

DRK has a bunch of random abilities therefore it's an awesome tank...

please tell me this was sarcasm

That's just it, they aren't random. This class has quite obviously been well put together from strong aspects of both the tanks before it.

[Syfer22]

Not necessarily. People will whine about anything. It's the desire for the "perfect" class. If it were up to me, of course there would be no limiting factor to any skill, and I'd face roll ALL THE CONTENT. But that doesn't make a good game. This class, however, is not actually wanting for anything. Between cross class skills and class skills, there isn't a thing they shouldn't be able to handle. They are already getting the equivalent tank toggle to Paladins, a skill that is EXACTLY like Rampart, one equivalent to Vengeance minus a porcupine effect but Rampart's CD, they also have access to Foresight, Awareness, Convalescence, then they also get a very short cooldown for magic damage. That's three cooldowns for physical damage and three for magical damage, a healing up, and a little fodder to sprinkle on top (Awareness). When it comes to magical attackers, this class will take the cake with Delirium too. No tank yet can shine so well against magical enemies, and they still don't lack when it comes to physical. How anyone can find any faults in this job's capabilities is beyond me. The likely case is they are simply bad at playing the job.



That's just it, they aren't random. This class has quite obviously been well put together from strong aspects of both the tanks before it.

Personally, I don't think DRK is a bad tank and I enjoy it, but I do feel it's not on the same level as PLD and WAR. That being said, however, a lot of the complaints or suggestions seem to come from question and answer. Raids and end game content asks questions, and it's up to the raid party to find answers for those questions. Example:

Titan EX
This is my tankbuster. Do you have answer for it?
If no, move on to the next question.
If yes: Do you answer it as well as other classes in your same role?

[Giantbane]

Not necessarily. People will whine about anything. It's the desire for the "perfect" class. If it were up to me, of course there would be no limiting factor to any skill, and I'd face roll ALL THE CONTENT. But that doesn't make a good game. This class, however, is not actually wanting for anything. Between cross class skills and class skills, there isn't a thing they shouldn't be able to handle. They are already getting the equivalent tank toggle to Paladins, a skill that is EXACTLY like Rampart, one equivalent to Vengeance minus a porcupine effect but Rampart's CD, they also have access to Foresight, Awareness, Convalescence, then they also get a very short cooldown for magic damage. That's three cooldowns for physical damage and three for magical damage, a healing up, and a little fodder to sprinkle on top (Awareness). When it comes to magical attackers, this class will take the cake with Delirium too. No tank yet can shine so well against magical enemies, and they still don't lack when it comes to physical. How anyone can find any faults in this job's capabilities is beyond me. The likely case is they are simply bad at playing the job.

I think the following highlights the concerns quite well.

Like I said above, Odin's fight is a good way to see the differences.
PLD has 5 preemptive defense CD, so you always have one ready for each Sangetall. WAR has Inner Beast. That alone is enough to mitigate every hit too.
As a DRK, I have 4 cooldowns (Shadow Skin, Shadow Wall, Dark Dance and Living Dead)., and they pop pretty fast, since Odin use its tankbuster very frequently. Maybe I lack some experience as a DRK, but it's far more difficult. And Dark Dance is far from reliable.

Listing off how their mana regen abilities as if it was some kind of "benefit" to the class is silly. They use VASTLY more mana than either WARs or PLD. It's not a benefit to the class, it's a requirement to make it function at all.

Oh, the skill that's equivalent to Vengeance minus the porcupine effect? It doesn't have Vengeance's 2min cooldown or Rampart's 90sec cooldown, it has Sentinel's 3 minute cooldown (you know sentinel with the 40% damage reduction, not vengeance's 30% damage reduction?). If that ability was on a 90s cooldown we'd be having a different conversation.

[Ceodore]

I think the following highlights the concerns quite well.



Listing off how their mana regen abilities as if it was some kind of "benefit" to the class is silly. They use VASTLY more mana than either WARs or PLD. It's not a benefit to the class, it's a requirement to make it function at all.

Oh, the skill that's equivalent to Vengeance minus the porcupine effect? It doesn't have Vengeance's 2min cooldown or Rampart's 90sec cooldown, it has Sentinel's 3 minute cooldown (you know sentinel with the 40% damage reduction, not vengeance's 30% damage reduction?). If that ability was on a 90s cooldown we'd be having a different conversation.

Where is Foresight? Where is Awareness? Where is Convalescence? To ignore these skills is a sign of incompetence. ALL your tools make up a tank, not just the ones that come stock. I'm aware of the effect and the CD on Shadow Wall. Its CD is like Sentinel, then plan with it like Sentinel.

[Giantbane]

Where is Foresight? Where is Awareness? Where is Convalescence? To ignore these skills is a sign of incompetence. ALL your tools make up a tank, not just the ones that come stock.

All 3 abilities are available to each tank so it's sort of a moot point. They're all not particularly effective vs. tank busters except Convalescence on the WAR. The reason for this is that you can pair it with Thrill of Battle to create an effect that almost exactly mimics Rampart.

I'm aware of the effect and the CD on Shadow Wall. Its CD is like Sentinel, then plan with it like Sentinel.

I guess it was a typo when you said that skill like vengeance with a Rampart cooldown.

Anyhow. Lets take a raid boss with a ~30s physical tank buster (which, as you've so kindly pointed out, the majority of tank busters are physical thus far).

PLD will have rage of halone up all the time, reducing the strength of all his attacks, including all the tank busters.
WAR will have storm's path up all the time, reducing the strength of all his attacks, including all the tank busters.
DRK might have reprise up, reducing some of his attacks, it ... might be on the boss for a tank buster?

Tank buster 1 > Shadow Skin
Tank buster 2 > Shadow Wall
Tank buster 3 > you've got your dick in your hand and odin's about to chop it off ... whaddaya gonna do? pop everything else and hope for the best?

[Ceodore]

All 3 abilities are available to each tank so it's sort of a moot point.

Anyhow. Lets take a raid boss with a ~30s physical tank buster (which, as you've so kindly pointed out, the majority of tank busters are physical thus far).

PLD will have rage of halone up all the time, reducing the strength of all his attacks, including all the tank busters.
WAR will have storm's path up all the time, reducing the strength of all his attacks, including all the tank busters.
DRK might have reprise up, reducing some of his attacks, it ... might be on the boss for a tank buster?

Tank buster 1 > Shadowskin
Tank buster 2 > Shadowwall
Tank buster 3 > you've got your dick in your hand and odin's about to chop it off ... whaddaya gonna do? pop everything else and hope for the best?

Convalescence well before hand to increase potency of shield cast on you by healer (As the healer is suppose to do) Foresight to reduce physical damage, Awareness to ensure the hit is not critical. You assume to think that you're using all these skills right when the hit is coming. Again, a sign of a sub par tank. Utilize each one to their fullest by predicting what your party is going to do. Every healer should know to shield for a tank crunch, if your mitigation alone is all you are relying on, then I suggest you find a better healer. What use is Convalescence for mitigating damage after the fact of the damage? None. Utilize it before the damage to boost the preparing skills a healer is suppose to use and suddenly a healing skill becomes a damage mitigating skill.

[Giantbane]

Convalescence well before hand to increase potency of shield cast on you by healer (As the healer is suppose to do) Foresight to reduce physical damage, Awareness to ensure the hit is not critical. You assume to think that you're using all these skills right when the hit is coming. Again, a sign of a sub par tank. Utilize each one to their fullest by predicting what your party is going to do. Every healer should know to shield for a tank crunch, if your mitigation alone is all you are relying on, then I suggest you find a better healer. What use is Convalescence for mitigating damage after the fact of the damage? None. Utilize it before the damage to boost the preparing skills a healer is suppose to use and suddenly a healing skill becomes a damage mitigating skill.

You're talking raid coordination that the other tanks wouldn't require because they have actual defensive cooldowns to mitigate the damage.

So the other two tanks have abilities that can just deal with the tank buster on their own without the need for healers to have any idea what they're doing. But the DRK requires the healers to be on the ball for that 3rd hit because he can't do anything about it on his own. That doesn't sound very balanced.

What happens when you graduate from PUG level Odin to actual raids that require the tank to pop a strong mitigation ability in addition to healer coordination to handle the really big tank busters? You're not seeing the problem here?

[Reynhart]

Listing off how their mana regen abilities as if it was some kind of "benefit" to the class is silly. They use VASTLY more mana than either WARs or PLD. It's not a benefit to the class, it's a requirement to make it function at all.

Oh, the skill that's equivalent to Vengeance minus the porcupine effect? It doesn't have Vengeance's 2min cooldown or Rampart's 90sec cooldown, it has Sentinel's 3 minute cooldown (you know sentinel with the 40% damage reduction, not vengeance's 30% damage reduction?). If that ability was on a 90s cooldown we'd be having a different conversation.

Wait, what ?
At what do you actually answer here ?

It seems like we agree that DRK has less mitigation for really frequent tankbusters, but I can't really say for sure.