PROPOSE Machinist Buffs/Changes HERE

[Alchemii]

Ok I'm gonna state this here, though I might go ahead and make a new thread about the idea. You/We all have been looking at MCH wrong, the class is not a support class, which is what all your purposed skills are, the class is a Debuffer. This is a type of character that's been in the final fantasy serious forever, well maybe not forever but for a good long time now. While yes this is not a normal role in MMO's, I think we need to stop treating it like it's a support class. Sorry OP but taking that train of thought, and stop trying to force it into a support role, that means the very skills you want removed are closer to the very core skills of the role, and we need those skills buffed, and skills similar to them, and honestly have the TP and MP regens removed, or just stop worrying about them all together.

[Sersei]

snip.

Listen to this man! For he speaks true! Thank you so much! Even if I threw my two cents at everyone calling for buffs, you are 100% correct and I hope that's realized sooner rather than later

[PlumpyMcduff]

...You/We all have been looking at MCH wrong, the class is not a support class, which is what all your purposed skills are, the class is a Debuffer...

...I think we need to stop treating it like it's a support class...

...stop trying to force it into a support role...

...honestly have the TP and MP regens removed, or just stop worrying about them all together.

While I partially agree with you, it's both. There's no denying that we were also built for support. Sure, we have more debuff options to work with (in a way), so we do fulfill a debuffer-role... but we're not strictly designed as a debuffer.

We're a debuffer/support hybrid with buff-lite capabilities. The other funny thing about your assertion is that Bard arguably shares almost the same niche. So I find it interesting that you don't contribute a case for them in the same vein.

I'm not trying to shoehorn it into a Support role... your claims on me are insulting, frankly. One new Support skill & improving the design of a current one by splicing it hardly merits demanding I, "stop trying to force it into a support role" (or insinuating that I'm trying to).

So perhaps Salve gives it one new support-option... but that's about it. I didn't take away from their debuff-options, I merely folded them into other skills & I cleaned up their preexisting Promotion capability as it was flawed by design.

If anything, I improved it's debuffing capabilities as well... as I untied Foot Graze from Leg Graze, combined Dismantle/Rend Mind into a single cast, & buffed Suppressive Fire.

So, ultimately, I just enhanced the aspects of Machinist all-around... your claim against me is ludicrous.


BRD

DEBUFFER: Blunt Arrow, Foe's Requiem, Rain of Death, Shadowbind

SUPPORT: Army's Paeon, Mage's Ballad, Warden's Paean


MCH

DEBUFFER: Dismantle/Rend Mind, Foot Graze/Leg Graze, Head Graze/Suppressive Fire, Hypercharge

SUPPORT: Promotion (Bishop), Promotion (Rook), Hypercharge


So sure, we have more tools for Debuffing so you could argue we have more of a bent for Debuffing (though, it's better to say more options but at the expense of other options). Same with BRD, they're more of a half-and-half. But in no way are we not a debuffer/support DPS hybrid.

They included Promotion for a reason (as well as the ability to Hypercharge it).

You don't know what MCH will look like in 4.0~, but right now it's a mix (albeit, with a slighter lean toward debuffer-role).

...I think that foe is better because it is more easily used, but at least ours don't cost mana...

Here's how I see the two... now it's important to consider that the Jobs are different & should bring different things to the table... this' just a strict side-by-side comparison, so it should be taken with a grain of salt:

PRO: no mana requirement

PRO: able to maintain both +mp/tp effects, as well as +phys/mag damage bonuses simultaneously

PRO: option of either +phys or +mag damage bonus

CON: ours is Hypercharge-gated (lasts for 10s on a 120s CD ability)

CON: ours is half to one-fourth as effective (5% vs. 10% or 20% when Battle Voiced)

CON: choice of +phys or +mag damage bonus is gated behind turret-choice (personally gimping us on either single-target or multi-target DPS)

CON: choice of +phys or +mag damage bonus gates the others' mp/tp regeneration option (further pigeon-holed)

New ability: Rage shot with a potency of 0!
This will increase by 15 every time you don't get a Split/ Slug proc up to a maximum of 500 potency.

I think this' actually a really cool solution!

Though, I would do 50 potency gain up to 250 (maybe 300? Big hit chance!).

Although I believe it's implied, instant cast, no cool down, off-gcd (may need one of these components nerfed, though the thing here is that it's only useful as a result of gimped proc's...).

Maybe make it so the stacks for use have like a 30s timer but the timer refreshes on newly missed proc's.

[Keylus]

...

Debuffer? we don't have any unique debuff, most of our debuffs share long CDs and half of them are tuned down version of the debuffs of other classes
Rend Mind/Dismantle are tuned down versions of virus
Hypercharge debuffs are tuned down versions of Trick Attack (and maybe Foe)
Leg Graze/Foot Graze: a lot of classes have snares and heavys (plus they don't work on raid bosses)
Suppressive Fire: a lot of classes have stuns (mostly melees but that does't matter because SF is melee), Head Graze is like Blunt Arrow

do we have a lot of debuffs? yes
are they unique? no
are they more useful that the ones of other classes? no
can we keep constantly debuffing the target? no

We have a lot of tools, but not enough to consider debuff as our main task

Edit: I get your pont in that remove those abilities is a bad idea, but the OP suggested other way to put the debuffs that he proposed to remove

[jadan2000]

i was thinking one thing to do would be decrease the CD for reload by half

[Shhikasan]

Reload and quick reload cds could be reduced if we are keeping the rng factor into those abilities.

Gauss barrel and in bards case WM. should be just a flat 20% dmg increase just like nin's poison. give us back our auto attacks and no cast times if guass and wm were ment to stay on permanently we lose basically what we did in a large number of raids which was kiting etc.

i enjoy all these buttons i get to push but sad part non of it pays off.

if they don't change or fix this before alex you can bet your ass no one is taking a bard and mch into a raid. I haven't seen much need to use tp regen outside myself because i burn through it because no proc's 70 tp cost skill. and had a white mage literally never ran out of mana even when the blm died res etc etc.

[LittleArrow]

I completely agree with that knockback / footgraze. Footgraze is completely useless. That's a skill that should be tied in with another skill. They did an amazing job with the leg graze.

Here are my suggestions with MCH. These are more so to fix the damage problem though:

1. Lower the GCD / Casting time to so we can spam Split Shot more
2. Increase the proc chance between Split and Slug to 75% or 80%, leave the proc chance between Slug and Cleaner alone
3. Lower the Cooldowns on Reload / Quick Reload
4. Make Wildfire cut through all defenses (it's getting hit with 2 defense reductions, the only move that does that in the entire game)
5. Add a self heal somewhere (like second wind - passive that lowers CD on potions and increases its effect)
6. Increase all of the overall potencies of weaponskills
7. Increase all of the overal potencies of Turret to do more damage

I the wildfire suggestion is the same as yours. Personally, I think 1-5 should be done right off the bat and 6 or 7 should be done, but not both.

[Alchemii]

-snip-

I didn't mean any disrespect by it, I just meant that it, to me at least, felt like you were wanting it changed over to a support, which I completely feel is not what it's meant to be. I do agree it needs some improvements, I just don't think these would be the ways to go about it.

-snip-

Look I'm not gonna go into the full argument on this, as I do agree these skills need to be improved, however I don't agree that they are just weakend version of the counter-parts to of other jobs. I do have a few ideas on how to improve the class, but it's mostly just increasing the numbers. Now I will say this, if you think of this class as a debuffer instead of a support then your party will still need that support, in which case all your debuffing will stack with all the support, which could make this class do much better, but if the class shines it will probably never be noticed by anyone else.

[XgungraveX]

ok i got to 60 and got a 180i weapon with some decent so my two cents the burst dmg is relly good on mcn but..... where i see a problem is the sustain dmg through out long fights,siting there spaming split shot hoping for a proc while waiting for cds.

[SuzakuCMX]

It's hyper Suz, look it up on... Um... Google, I'd give you a link if I could

Ahhh ok thanks. I was looking it up on xiv.db and it didn't mention it!

Ricochet is 400 potency. o-o

It said it's 100 on first target and 300 to subsequent; didn't know it was 400 total on a single target! Guess I should get to 60 before I start talking