Shortage of tanks a myth - thoughts?

[Zfz]

If you can't take the fire get out of the heat.

Your response would be great in a competitive game. But not in a co-operative setup like the DF---although many seem to have the need to show who's got the bigger body part in everything they do. As I said before, you are not solving the problem. You are not helping at all by discouraging people, telling them quit tanking.

The problem is real and is a fact: we need more tanks in the DF. And when you brush off people who are trying to learn tanking by applying the utmost highest standard on them right from the beginning, you are raising the barrier to entry.

You cannot expect a fresh rookie in boot camp to function properly under live fire. That's why some armies used to send rookies crawling through a field with live machine-gun fire scissoring across over their heads over a 500m crawl. In the army we could do that can call it a day. In a co-operative game, we need to actually support them.

Or if you don't feel the problem of lack of tanks, then you probably shouldn't be trying to stop others from providing the support.

Don't add to the problem. If you are just going to make the problem worse, you might as well not say anything.

This is how its been like since early everquest. It has been like this for almost two generations.

EverQuest was a different game, in a different time. Or maybe you'd like to revive slavery as well?

[Elladie]

I mainly go healer in DF (think I said this already at the start of the thread). Mostly SCH sometimes WHM. And I do often run with friends, one of who is a great tank (either PLD or WAR, he mains both). Because we've done them all so often, we have great synergy. So I do mutter to myself when I solo queue that I'm spoiled by having a favourite tank who bothers to check the DPS and decide what they're capable off. He will ask me in voice-chat if I feel like big pulls etc. So all I'm really asking of all those other tanks out there is a) say hi b) ask if folks want a speedrun c) or say something like 'I'm not happy pulling the whole room, I'll grab as many as I think I can keep hate on d) or even say 'hey I'm new to this, please be patient'

I'm fine with any of those, and if the DPS starting giving him/her shit because HEY SPEEEEEEDRUUUUUN! I am going to side with the tank. I appreciate that lots of folks want to go fast, but trying to force a tank to pull more than they are comfortable handling is bound to end badly. This is why tanks are in short supply; no one gives them a chance to ease into the role, just gives them grief because they can't go fast from the get-go. As I already said in an earlier post, I am heartily sick of tanks pulling ALL THE THINGS because they think they have to when they're not yet geared/skilled enough to do it.

[Dzian]

I'd call pld my main role and I enjoy it. but in many cases I find people just don't play cooperatively.

if I pull a group of 5-6 mobs then for whatever reason I find many dps will make a deliberate attempt to find that one mob in the pack that I have the lowest enmity on and then do everything they can to pull hate and then proceed to rage at me for losing it.

if however they played cooperatively they would focus there attacks on the mobs I had the strongest enmity on and kill them first and thus I'd maintain threat on everything much easier.
second to this is the number of dps especially blms that for some reason refuse to use quelling strikes or even stop dps for a minute to let a tank get control of a fight.

see this in wod for example where dps will open really heavy bosses will go ballistic and then everyone rages at the tanks for not having hate but they aren't doing anything at all to help the tank get control.

so yeah I can see why people hate playing tanks in duty finder and in many cases I feel that the player mentality only hurts themselves. they wait ages for queues because there's a shortage of tanks, then they do everything they can to give tanks a hard time, then less people play tanks in duty finder and that means the quesues are even longer.

if players on the whole played more cooperatively then more people might be willing to tank duty finder groups and that would in turn mean shorter queues for everyone.

[Elladie]

Ashkendor, I think I love you! You speak so much sense, I'm bowled over <3

[starLivitation]

i think they need to subtantionally increase tank rewards for completing dungens or duties. maybe like the mount for raids etc where, for completing 200 raids u get lion or the other warrior mount. there needs to be certain objectives, to let people get eager to use tanks, and i hope its not the relic quest, we had enuf of that.

[KisaiTenshi]

Speed pulling has been around as long as there's been games with mobs that you can drag into other mobs. It's not unique to FFXIV in any way shape or form, and it's something that the developers would have had to account for.

As an aside, the only time you're going to "get creamed" on a melee is if you're being lazy and not dodging those pretty orange floor markers. It's quite possible to dodge the floor markers and still get in damage. If you DO happen to get hit, use Second Wind. Even if the healer is already on top of curing you, they will appreciate the fact that you tried to help yourself.

There is an entire argument in the healer forum about this.
1) Tanks should tank, Healers should prioritize healing, and DPS should DPS
2) If Healers are DPS'ing and DPS are healing, then you've dragged down the DPS output of the party.

Indeed Melee's (particularly Ninja and Monk) seem far more likely to not avoid AOE's. More than half the 4-man parties that have one or both, increase the healing requirements in a way that the healer can only save the tank or the DPS, and it will always be the Tank that has priority.

If Speedpulling had been designed as part of the dungeons, then there would be more road cones (eg doors) and spacing to preventing getting trains that would overwhelm a tank at the ilevel it syncs at. Which this just tells me the developers were being too generous with the ilevel sync.

[StouterTaru]

As a BLM I'm used to pulling hate on trash mobs with an undergeared tank, and I don't mind. I'll fly into the pack and keep going. The thing about overgeared dps stealing hate is that they also kill stuff fast.

Bosses are different; all a tank has to do is blow up offensive CDs and hate moves at the start, and even a 100 weapon tank can hold hate for the fight over BiS dps.

[Nadirah]

I hate speedpulls.

Hate.

Speedpulls + "healer y u no dps?" = moar hate.

[Sapphic]

You have the entire party in your hands. You and the healer are like bff's both stressed to hell. xD I'm also scared of playing 'Tank Wars' in WoD.
Dx

If people make a genuine mistake I make a light hearted joke of it (not turning them into a joke of course) so people relax, if it's a mistake from lack of experience I give some tips on what I find a good way to handle it. Not saying as that is what they should do, but for eample "I handle that by doin this". If they go all jerk on me, and continue doing the same thing wiping the party, ill suggest in party chat to remove them.

Oh and in the CT dugneons. If I'm tanking and they start provoking off me, ill stop hitting it and leave it on them. They want it that badly, they can keep it. Ill just pick it back up if they die.

Speedpulling is part of the reason people get rightfully upset, because the tank never ask the healers what they can handle, nor do they look at what DPS configuration they have. Two Melee's, forget speedpulling (they will get creamed by the mobs AOE's, regardless of gear.) Two BLM's, Speedpull as much as possible if they are overgeared for the dungeon. BRD and SMN? Probably not going to happen.

I always ask when I tank. So incorrect generalization there.

Also 2 well played and well geared melee are perfectly capable of speed running. B4B+ perfect balance, spam rockbreaker with MNK. Also Ive done speed runs with pretty much every combination of DPS jobs there is.

There is an entire argument in the healer forum about this.
1) Tanks should tank, Healers should prioritize healing, and DPS should DPS
2) If Healers are DPS'ing and DPS are healing, then you've dragged down the DPS output of the party.

So what should tanks do when they arent tanking the boss? Sit around scratching their unmentionables? Or what about healers when theres a lull in healing needed? Watch netflix instead?

number 2 makes zero sense whatsover. So if DPS are doing averge 500 DPS thats 2000 DPS. tanks are doing average 300 DPS. thats 2600 DPS, and if healers are doing on average 150 DPS, that takes the total to 2900 DPS for a 8 person party. How is that a DPS loss if healers are adding to the damage. Who said anything about DPS healing?

Indeed Melee's (particularly Ninja and Monk) seem far more likely to not avoid AOE's. More than half the 4-man parties that have one or both, increase the healing requirements in a way that the healer can only save the tank or the DPS, and it will always be the Tank that has priority.

MNK are far more likely to avoid AE as they are constantly moving anyways. Only bad melee eat avoidable AE. So stop trying to catogarize all melee as bad.

I get it, you cant do speed runs, but making up imaginary generalized arguments against it is weak.

[KisaiTenshi]

I always ask when I tank. So incorrect generalization there.

I've had exactly 3 people ask in the last 3 months. So it's more correct than incorrect.

Also 2 well played and well geared melee are perfectly capable of speed running. B4B+ perfect balance, spam rockbreaker with MNK. Also Ive done speed runs with pretty much every combination of DPS jobs there is.

I didn't say it was impossible, I said that the healing requirements are greater for two melee. If they aren't geared for speedpulls, they get squished. BRD/SMN overall don't have as many AOE tools, but they also don't stand in AOE's. SMN pets do however, their pets do not show up in the party list, so it's up to the SMN to heal their own pet if it's getting wrecked.

So what should tanks do when they arent tanking the boss? Sit around scratching their unmentionables? Or what about healers when theres a lull in healing needed? Watch netflix instead?

The opinion is that a healer who is not healing (eg DPS'ing, or just jumping around doing nothing productive) is abandoning their job, and a DPS who needs to heal themselves or others is a reflection of that job being abandoned, thus dragging down DPS because now the DPS has to stop DPS'ing.

If there is a lull in combat where no damage is being taken (see several phases of ST in CT) then obviously the healers and tanks have opportunity to DPS, even though their input is not needed and not required. If they are needed to add DPS, then the DPS themselves are weak. In a 24 person Raid like ST and WoD, where there are 15 DPS... means multiple DPS aren't carrying their weight.

I've seen it happen where a WoD instance will start, make it past the first trash room and then abandon at Angra Mainyu because NONE of the tanks came prepared to tank. Were they all wearing DPS gear? Were they all using their DPS stance? The healing requirements go past the point of being able to save the situation when you also have Healers who only jumped into the Healer queue for the fast queue and only want to DPS too. Fortunately that exact scenario has happened only once in my experience.

In short, players should come prepared before they queue for the job they select. Don't expect to be carried, or for the other tanks/healers to do your job for you. It's insane enough when you run ST or WoD and only one Tank came prepared. Players wearing crafting gear or some ilevel 55 gear parts in ilevel 90 content ... seriously why?