Shortage of tanks a myth - thoughts?

[Mhikail]

In before the "lol grow think skin" replies: the world is full of sensitive people. It is a fact. The solution is not to deny their existence or somehow fantasize that your reply will change their personality (if you do then, well, ignorance is a bliss). The solution is to try and accommodate them. If you don't want to do that, then you might as well not reply because you are adding to the problem, not trying to solve it.

So much this. I'm very sensitive.
I think everyone needs to treat everyone with respect no matter the job.

DPS: Don't get sad when the DPS isn't pushing out 100000DPS because they are under geared.
Heal: Don't get pissed when they can't heal you in big mobs. Respect them if they CAN'T heal big mobs.
Tank: Don't get upset when they can't hold aggro a lot because you're BiS and they aren't just yet.

IMO: Tanking is incredibly stressful for me. It's easier for me as a WAR albeit level 40 but I get to nervous and scared I sometimes spam my Provoke Macro because I panic like crazy.
You have the entire party in your hands. You and the healer are like bff's both stressed to hell. xD I'm also scared of playing 'Tank Wars' in WoD.
Dx

[Sapphic]

You have the entire party in your hands. You and the healer are like bff's both stressed to hell. xD I'm also scared of playing 'Tank Wars' in WoD.
Dx

If people make a genuine mistake I make a light hearted joke of it (not turning them into a joke of course) so people relax, if it's a mistake from lack of experience I give some tips on what I find a good way to handle it. Not saying as that is what they should do, but for eample "I handle that by doin this". If they go all jerk on me, and continue doing the same thing wiping the party, ill suggest in party chat to remove them.

Oh and in the CT dugneons. If I'm tanking and they start provoking off me, ill stop hitting it and leave it on them. They want it that badly, they can keep it. Ill just pick it back up if they die.

Speedpulling is part of the reason people get rightfully upset, because the tank never ask the healers what they can handle, nor do they look at what DPS configuration they have. Two Melee's, forget speedpulling (they will get creamed by the mobs AOE's, regardless of gear.) Two BLM's, Speedpull as much as possible if they are overgeared for the dungeon. BRD and SMN? Probably not going to happen.

I always ask when I tank. So incorrect generalization there.

Also 2 well played and well geared melee are perfectly capable of speed running. B4B+ perfect balance, spam rockbreaker with MNK. Also Ive done speed runs with pretty much every combination of DPS jobs there is.

There is an entire argument in the healer forum about this.
1) Tanks should tank, Healers should prioritize healing, and DPS should DPS
2) If Healers are DPS'ing and DPS are healing, then you've dragged down the DPS output of the party.

So what should tanks do when they arent tanking the boss? Sit around scratching their unmentionables? Or what about healers when theres a lull in healing needed? Watch netflix instead?

number 2 makes zero sense whatsover. So if DPS are doing averge 500 DPS thats 2000 DPS. tanks are doing average 300 DPS. thats 2600 DPS, and if healers are doing on average 150 DPS, that takes the total to 2900 DPS for a 8 person party. How is that a DPS loss if healers are adding to the damage. Who said anything about DPS healing?

Indeed Melee's (particularly Ninja and Monk) seem far more likely to not avoid AOE's. More than half the 4-man parties that have one or both, increase the healing requirements in a way that the healer can only save the tank or the DPS, and it will always be the Tank that has priority.

MNK are far more likely to avoid AE as they are constantly moving anyways. Only bad melee eat avoidable AE. So stop trying to catogarize all melee as bad.

I get it, you cant do speed runs, but making up imaginary generalized arguments against it is weak.

[KisaiTenshi]

I always ask when I tank. So incorrect generalization there.

I've had exactly 3 people ask in the last 3 months. So it's more correct than incorrect.

Also 2 well played and well geared melee are perfectly capable of speed running. B4B+ perfect balance, spam rockbreaker with MNK. Also Ive done speed runs with pretty much every combination of DPS jobs there is.

I didn't say it was impossible, I said that the healing requirements are greater for two melee. If they aren't geared for speedpulls, they get squished. BRD/SMN overall don't have as many AOE tools, but they also don't stand in AOE's. SMN pets do however, their pets do not show up in the party list, so it's up to the SMN to heal their own pet if it's getting wrecked.

So what should tanks do when they arent tanking the boss? Sit around scratching their unmentionables? Or what about healers when theres a lull in healing needed? Watch netflix instead?

The opinion is that a healer who is not healing (eg DPS'ing, or just jumping around doing nothing productive) is abandoning their job, and a DPS who needs to heal themselves or others is a reflection of that job being abandoned, thus dragging down DPS because now the DPS has to stop DPS'ing.

If there is a lull in combat where no damage is being taken (see several phases of ST in CT) then obviously the healers and tanks have opportunity to DPS, even though their input is not needed and not required. If they are needed to add DPS, then the DPS themselves are weak. In a 24 person Raid like ST and WoD, where there are 15 DPS... means multiple DPS aren't carrying their weight.

I've seen it happen where a WoD instance will start, make it past the first trash room and then abandon at Angra Mainyu because NONE of the tanks came prepared to tank. Were they all wearing DPS gear? Were they all using their DPS stance? The healing requirements go past the point of being able to save the situation when you also have Healers who only jumped into the Healer queue for the fast queue and only want to DPS too. Fortunately that exact scenario has happened only once in my experience.

In short, players should come prepared before they queue for the job they select. Don't expect to be carried, or for the other tanks/healers to do your job for you. It's insane enough when you run ST or WoD and only one Tank came prepared. Players wearing crafting gear or some ilevel 55 gear parts in ilevel 90 content ... seriously why?

[Ashkendor]

I've had exactly 3 people ask in the last 3 months. So it's more correct than incorrect.

In your experience, maybe. I ask all the time. I run into people that ask pretty frequently, too.

It's a pretty subjective observation.

I didn't say it was impossible, I said that the healing requirements are greater for two melee. If they aren't geared for speedpulls, they get squished. BRD/SMN overall don't have as many AOE tools, but they also don't stand in AOE's. SMN pets do however, their pets do not show up in the party list, so it's up to the SMN to heal their own pet if it's getting wrecked.

Healing requirements are only greater for melee if they stand in cleaves and aoe's, which admittedly they have more opportunity to do. If they dodge like they should be, there's no difference whatsoever. Any DPS that routinely refuses to dodge AoE's because "mah deeps" is basically a mana sponge that deserves to hit the floor.

The opinion is that a healer who is not healing (eg DPS'ing, or just jumping around doing nothing productive) is abandoning their job, and a DPS who needs to heal themselves or others is a reflection of that job being abandoned, thus dragging down DPS because now the DPS has to stop DPS'ing.

Yeah, but who ever mentioned DPS having to heal because healers aren't? I said something about popping Second Wind if you DO happen to get hit, which is off the GCD and doesn't take away from your DPS in any way. In any case, putting up some DPS and still keeping up the heals isn't all that hard to do so I don't see what the issue with healers DPS'ing is.

If there is a lull in combat where no damage is being taken (see several phases of ST in CT) then obviously the healers and tanks have opportunity to DPS, even though their input is not needed and not required. If they are needed to add DPS, then the DPS themselves are weak. In a 24 person Raid like ST and WoD, where there are 15 DPS... means multiple DPS aren't carrying their weight.

Honestly, I don't care if my input is "not needed and not required". If I'm not tanking or healing, I'm DPS'ing.

I've seen it happen where a WoD instance will start, make it past the first trash room and then abandon at Angra Mainyu because NONE of the tanks came prepared to tank. Were they all wearing DPS gear? Were they all using their DPS stance? The healing requirements go past the point of being able to save the situation when you also have Healers who only jumped into the Healer queue for the fast queue and only want to DPS too. Fortunately that exact scenario has happened only once in my experience.

Even if the tank is wearing DPS gear, who cares? It's freaking WoD. You don't need 10k+ hps to tank it. I don't normally go in there to MT myself; I prefer to make sure adds are picked up. If we just stand there staring at each other before the boss with all 3 tanks shuffling their feet, I'll just shrug and pull and pray the other tanks know how to OT. When I queue on Scholar, I rarely leave Cleric Stance even when my alliance's tank is MT. I'd rather put up some unneeded DPS than spam some unneeded heals. Overhealing is basically a waste of time; I mayaswell do the Manderville and go afk.

In short, players should come prepared before they queue for the job they select. Don't expect to be carried, or for the other tanks/healers to do your job for you. It's insane enough when you run ST or WoD and only one Tank came prepared. Players wearing crafting gear or some ilevel 55 gear parts in ilevel 90 content ... seriously why?

Eh. i55 gear is one thing, that may be someone new that's gearing up and if RNGesus is being unkind to them with the pieces that they're able to replace, there's not a whole lot they can do about that until they grind enough tomes. Crafting gear I agree with you on, though. I usually take it upon myself to say something to people that are in crafting gear; if they refuse to change it, I initiate a kick. If you aren't going to wear gear that's even got relevant stats, you can gtfo.

[Sapphic]

I didn't say it was impossible, I said that the healing requirements are greater for two melee. If they aren't geared for speedpulls, they get squished. BRD/SMN overall don't have as many AOE tools, but they also don't stand in AOE's.

The opinion is that a healer who is not healing (eg DPS'ing, or just jumping around doing nothing productive) is abandoning their job, and a DPS who needs to heal themselves or others is a reflection of that job being abandoned, thus dragging down DPS because now the DPS has to stop DPS'ing.

I've seen it happen where a WoD instance will start, make it past the first trash room and then abandon at Angra Mainyu because NONE of the tanks came prepared to tank. Were they all wearing DPS gear?

In short, players should come prepared before they queue for the job they select.

Only bad melee stay in AE. Also there is AE that ranged have to avoid also in many fights. So you are saying all melee are herpderp stay in AE and get splatted, they are, to reiterate, bad players and deserve to face plant.

A healer doing nothing when no healing is required is being lazy and not utilizing the full range of their available tools.

Only heals DPS has worth mentioning on melee are instant off GCD abilities, so how would you stop DPSing to heal if it is off GCD and instant, aka second wind. If the healer isnt healing players through unavoidable damage then that is a bad healer.

If the tank is substantially overgeared for the content, switching to DPS gear is more beneficial to the run that goin in full 10k+ HP tanking gear for ilvl 90 content. When I tank I have 2 sets, full tank gear for large speed pulls. and DPS gear for bosses and switch between them. Or for certain content like HM primals, low ilvl lvl 50 dungeons ill do 100% in DPS gear. Depnding on the healer, in sword oath also. Which is prefectly doable with a good party and speeds up the clear substantially.

Players joining dungeons in crafting gear, thats one of the reasons there is a vote kick button, use it.