Shortage of tanks a myth - thoughts?

[Ashkendor]

I've had exactly 3 people ask in the last 3 months. So it's more correct than incorrect.

In your experience, maybe. I ask all the time. I run into people that ask pretty frequently, too.

It's a pretty subjective observation.

I didn't say it was impossible, I said that the healing requirements are greater for two melee. If they aren't geared for speedpulls, they get squished. BRD/SMN overall don't have as many AOE tools, but they also don't stand in AOE's. SMN pets do however, their pets do not show up in the party list, so it's up to the SMN to heal their own pet if it's getting wrecked.

Healing requirements are only greater for melee if they stand in cleaves and aoe's, which admittedly they have more opportunity to do. If they dodge like they should be, there's no difference whatsoever. Any DPS that routinely refuses to dodge AoE's because "mah deeps" is basically a mana sponge that deserves to hit the floor.

The opinion is that a healer who is not healing (eg DPS'ing, or just jumping around doing nothing productive) is abandoning their job, and a DPS who needs to heal themselves or others is a reflection of that job being abandoned, thus dragging down DPS because now the DPS has to stop DPS'ing.

Yeah, but who ever mentioned DPS having to heal because healers aren't? I said something about popping Second Wind if you DO happen to get hit, which is off the GCD and doesn't take away from your DPS in any way. In any case, putting up some DPS and still keeping up the heals isn't all that hard to do so I don't see what the issue with healers DPS'ing is.

If there is a lull in combat where no damage is being taken (see several phases of ST in CT) then obviously the healers and tanks have opportunity to DPS, even though their input is not needed and not required. If they are needed to add DPS, then the DPS themselves are weak. In a 24 person Raid like ST and WoD, where there are 15 DPS... means multiple DPS aren't carrying their weight.

Honestly, I don't care if my input is "not needed and not required". If I'm not tanking or healing, I'm DPS'ing.

I've seen it happen where a WoD instance will start, make it past the first trash room and then abandon at Angra Mainyu because NONE of the tanks came prepared to tank. Were they all wearing DPS gear? Were they all using their DPS stance? The healing requirements go past the point of being able to save the situation when you also have Healers who only jumped into the Healer queue for the fast queue and only want to DPS too. Fortunately that exact scenario has happened only once in my experience.

Even if the tank is wearing DPS gear, who cares? It's freaking WoD. You don't need 10k+ hps to tank it. I don't normally go in there to MT myself; I prefer to make sure adds are picked up. If we just stand there staring at each other before the boss with all 3 tanks shuffling their feet, I'll just shrug and pull and pray the other tanks know how to OT. When I queue on Scholar, I rarely leave Cleric Stance even when my alliance's tank is MT. I'd rather put up some unneeded DPS than spam some unneeded heals. Overhealing is basically a waste of time; I mayaswell do the Manderville and go afk.

In short, players should come prepared before they queue for the job they select. Don't expect to be carried, or for the other tanks/healers to do your job for you. It's insane enough when you run ST or WoD and only one Tank came prepared. Players wearing crafting gear or some ilevel 55 gear parts in ilevel 90 content ... seriously why?

Eh. i55 gear is one thing, that may be someone new that's gearing up and if RNGesus is being unkind to them with the pieces that they're able to replace, there's not a whole lot they can do about that until they grind enough tomes. Crafting gear I agree with you on, though. I usually take it upon myself to say something to people that are in crafting gear; if they refuse to change it, I initiate a kick. If you aren't going to wear gear that's even got relevant stats, you can gtfo.

[Sapphic]

I didn't say it was impossible, I said that the healing requirements are greater for two melee. If they aren't geared for speedpulls, they get squished. BRD/SMN overall don't have as many AOE tools, but they also don't stand in AOE's.

The opinion is that a healer who is not healing (eg DPS'ing, or just jumping around doing nothing productive) is abandoning their job, and a DPS who needs to heal themselves or others is a reflection of that job being abandoned, thus dragging down DPS because now the DPS has to stop DPS'ing.

I've seen it happen where a WoD instance will start, make it past the first trash room and then abandon at Angra Mainyu because NONE of the tanks came prepared to tank. Were they all wearing DPS gear?

In short, players should come prepared before they queue for the job they select.

Only bad melee stay in AE. Also there is AE that ranged have to avoid also in many fights. So you are saying all melee are herpderp stay in AE and get splatted, they are, to reiterate, bad players and deserve to face plant.

A healer doing nothing when no healing is required is being lazy and not utilizing the full range of their available tools.

Only heals DPS has worth mentioning on melee are instant off GCD abilities, so how would you stop DPSing to heal if it is off GCD and instant, aka second wind. If the healer isnt healing players through unavoidable damage then that is a bad healer.

If the tank is substantially overgeared for the content, switching to DPS gear is more beneficial to the run that goin in full 10k+ HP tanking gear for ilvl 90 content. When I tank I have 2 sets, full tank gear for large speed pulls. and DPS gear for bosses and switch between them. Or for certain content like HM primals, low ilvl lvl 50 dungeons ill do 100% in DPS gear. Depnding on the healer, in sword oath also. Which is prefectly doable with a good party and speeds up the clear substantially.

Players joining dungeons in crafting gear, thats one of the reasons there is a vote kick button, use it.

[MirielleLavandre]

Going off of what Zfz said, yep - I'm kind of a sensitive person, but I also like to help out the group as much as I can, and protect them if I can. That is why I leveled PLD before my current main WHM. However, as many have said, it is often the party itself that is more difficult to deal with than the actual monsters ^_^v Communication is key, and yep - I think trying to help newer tanks to build some confidence instead of tear them down would do tons to help create a better environment to foster more DF tanks. This, and also, coming from my NIN and BRD, all dps need to remember that there is such a thing as an aggro bar that you always see on whatever mob you're targeted on (well...BLM and other AoE types may need to switch through mobs to see it on all) -- manage your hate...it shows you're a good player and working as a team instead of a 'OMG I must do all the DMG!!!' while ignoring a newer tank having aggro issues ^^

[SpiritMuse]

all dps need to remember that there is such a thing as an aggro bar that you always see on whatever mob you're targeted on (well...BLM and other AoE types may need to switch through mobs to see it on all) -- manage your hate...it shows you're a good player and working as a team instead of a 'OMG I must do all the DMG!!!' while ignoring a newer tank having aggro issues ^^

This. This is like rule 1 of being a good dps. Well, actually, rule 1 is "Don't stand in the fire", but rule 2 is "Don't pull off the tank". Having started as a BLM I know this very well - keep an eye on the aggro meters and if you're about to pull then either curb your dps or switch targets. Simple. In AoE you can get an idea by keeping track of the enemy list, it's less accurate but you can see all at once.

[Castrau]

I am terrified of tanking because of stuff like this tank abuse. I'm slowly trying it, but only if I have a party at least 3/4 of people I know (including myself). As a ninja gone scholar, if a DPS isn't doing their job, I'll catch on, and maybe try to suggest that the bard doesn't try to steal agro. If a DPS is being ridiculously rude to another party member, I use my healer authority to have them stop (mainly let them take a bunch of damage, or in some cases, if they really aren't helping the group, just let them die). But if I enter as a DPS, I feel like I have no right to stop anyone besides the other DPS unless they're crossing some serious lines. As a tank, I don't have the same confidence as I heal, and I'm right around that "slightly lower than DPS" status of right to complain, because most of the time, I won't know exactly what I'm doing. Trust me, if the tank abuse dies down, maybe I'll try it. But I'm not going to df tank until I don't feel terrified of it.

[Kitria]

I am SO SO sorry to the tanks this is happening to.

I've leveled both Warrior and Paladin to 50 and run Coil/Experts as a tank (mainly Warrior) and have never received the kind of straight up abuse you guys are talking about. The only time anyone has even slightly talked about my tanking (excluding positive stuff) was someone telling me when I first started tanking I must have used to play WoW because of my particular style. Or if I've run Coil and screwed up a mechanic I'll say straight away I messed up and we all laugh about it. That is entirely it.

Is it anything to do with understanding the class? Have I just been incredibly lucky or something? Are you guys just a vocal minority?

I don't know. But even if you're still learning the class you shouldn't be getting treated like this and I'm so sorry you are. Maybe try practicing with some friends before going into DF if you think that will help? And make sure to read over all your abilities and take note of what you would use in what situation before going in.

It really pains me to hear this is happening because even though I've heard of it, I didn't realize it was this prevalent.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

If you can't take the fire get out of the heat. Tanking isn't for everyone and its not meant to be an easy role. You are expected to adapt quickly if your new and learn the zone quickly and watch the bosses and learn strategies quicker then everyone else, be better geared then everyone else and hold aggro even if you don't have good weapons like everyone else. No ifs-ands-or-butts.

This is how its been like since early everquest. It has been like this for almost two generations.

[Zfz]

If you can't take the fire get out of the heat.

Your response would be great in a competitive game. But not in a co-operative setup like the DF---although many seem to have the need to show who's got the bigger body part in everything they do. As I said before, you are not solving the problem. You are not helping at all by discouraging people, telling them quit tanking.

The problem is real and is a fact: we need more tanks in the DF. And when you brush off people who are trying to learn tanking by applying the utmost highest standard on them right from the beginning, you are raising the barrier to entry.

You cannot expect a fresh rookie in boot camp to function properly under live fire. That's why some armies used to send rookies crawling through a field with live machine-gun fire scissoring across over their heads over a 500m crawl. In the army we could do that can call it a day. In a co-operative game, we need to actually support them.

Or if you don't feel the problem of lack of tanks, then you probably shouldn't be trying to stop others from providing the support.

Don't add to the problem. If you are just going to make the problem worse, you might as well not say anything.

This is how its been like since early everquest. It has been like this for almost two generations.

EverQuest was a different game, in a different time. Or maybe you'd like to revive slavery as well?

[Nektulos-Tuor]

1000postlimit

How is it any different? When you make a statement, you make words to back up the statement.

[Zfz]

How is it any different? When you make a statement, you make words to back up the statement.

How is what different? When you quote, please just quote properly. You are shortening the quote already, it doesn't take a life time to leave in the parts you want to quote.