Shortage of tanks a myth - thoughts?

[Svalitz]

We need to just shut up for the most part and go back to the old days before every game insisted on including a dungeon finder. Apply the non-DF attitude to DF and it should fix right up.

If you wipe, take a minute or three, figure out the EXACT problem without blaming specific classes, go over what you think you did wrong, and try again.

How has this gotten so hard?

EXACTLY.

The problem is we're living in a world filled with anonymous internet jerk-offs who demand instant gratification for their time.

This is a GAME. A game that is mean to be ENJOYED.

If people want to speed through everything so that they can show off how giant their Epeen is, then don't use Duty Finder and ruin the game for everyone else. Stick to your own kind.

[MicahZerrshia]

This is a GAME. A game that is mean to be ENJOYED.

True, however just because you enjoy pulling 2 mobs doesn't mean a dps enjoys it. Whose enjoyment matters more? Obviously you believe yours and that mentality is the true elitest mentality that everyone thinks only the highest ilvl'd ppl can have. Sorry but its mostly players like this guy.

If people want to speed through everything so that they can show off how giant their Epeen is

It's not about being epeen, its about having to run a dungeon 60 times to get a drop and not wanting to effectively double or triple the amount of time the dungeon takes, and don't talk pf cause I have tried, you cannot form a pf pt for zodiac drop runs. No one wants to join.

All this talk about abused tanks just irritates me. The tanks I usually encounter in df pts think that they have the only opinion that matters. If they want to wear lvl 25 gear in a lvl 40+ raid we are supposed to adjust accordingly. If they want to take 2 minutes to mark 3 mobs, we need to wait, if they want to only attack one mob and no do their job by flashing or rotating rargets, we need to avoid anything that could possibly pull agro from anything other than the one single solitary mob the tank is focused on. And don't even get me started on the tanks who WALK instead of moving at the default pace because of RP or just because they wanna.

There are abusive dps but there are also abusing and extremely lazy tanks who have the mentality that they can do whatever they want cause they wont be kicked. The road goes 2 ways so stop blaming everyone else and maybe check your own attitude.

[KisaiTenshi]

When I go DF as DPS, I get bad tanks. When I go DF as a tank, I get bad DPS. This is the usual, but ever so rarely I'll get good versions of both. I can hope when DRK comes out I'll like it enough to use it as a main and just block out everything else in DF.

When I DF as DPS, I have to wait 3 to 10 times as long, and when the party has incompetent tanks or healers, I go "NOPE" and go back to queuing as healer again after.

When I queue as healer, at least the healing portion is something I know and can even deal with incompetent co-healers. But 1 in 10 runs results in a wipe somewhere that it shouldn't (eg the first pull in any dungeon) due to the tank trying to speedrun without any idea where everyone is. Then it's usually the tank who is rude.

As Kosmos has stated earlier, the shortage of tanks (and healers) is both real and imagined.

The real part is that there are a lack of players willing to step into the role as tank (and/or healer). And I count myself among those numbers, mostly due to that I have zero desire to have to deal with lippy brats.

The trolls are real. As a tank or healer, why should you waste time with DPS being jerks. But it's also unfair to the DPS who weren't being jerks, and were doing their job.

The commendation system is hence broken. It should present a slightly larger form after you exit the instance (before allowing another DF run) with:

In your last Duty Finder group, rate the following (hitting cancel will rate everyone average):

- The speed of play was
a) Average
b) Too fast
c) Too slow

(tank name) did X% of the damage and held threat Y% of the time
a) This tank's job was average
b) This tank's job was above average
c) This tank's job was below average
d) This tank was avoiding doing their job

(repeat if 2 tanks)

(healer name) did healed X%, overhealed by Y%, and DPS'd for %Z
a) This healer's job was average
b) This healer's job was above average
c) This healer's job was below average
d) This healer was avoiding doing their job

(repeat if 2 healers)

(DPS name) did did X% of total DPS damage and Y% support, and carried threat for Z% of the time
a) This DPS' job was average
b) This DPS' job was above average
c) This DPS' job was below average
d) This DPS was avoiding doing their job

(repeat for each DPS)

Overall would you play with these players again?
a) Yes
b) No

Replacement players (eg someone disconnected or had to leave) would not be evaluated if they joined after the boss room was locked.

Abandoning or exiting an instance, would automatically give the player a "was avoiding their job" rating. Being kicked would automatically give the kicked player a "was avoiding their job" for AFK.

It's not perfect, but currently doing anything inside the instance would take too much time, and the loot mechanics are the only thing that prevents some players from being kicked.

And when matching players in the future, prioritize players who play well together. Players that are consistently marked "was avoiding doing their job" (eg being carried, locked out on purpose, letting co-healer or co-tank do everything) would be barred from playing that role in those dungeon instances again until they improve on easier content.

Like even without the report card above, just having a way to signal to the DF matching system that a player is abusive, don't match them with me again would quickly make players be nicer and stop trolling otherwise they will be locked out of rewarding content.

[Eidolon]

The commendation system is hence broken. It should present a slightly larger form after you exit the instance (before allowing another DF run) with:

In your last Duty Finder group, rate the following (hitting cancel will rate everyone average):

- The speed of play was
a) Average
b) Too fast
c) Too slow

(tank name) did X% of the damage and held threat Y% of the time
a) This tank's job was average
b) This tank's job was above average
c) This tank's job was below average
d) This tank was avoiding doing their job

(repeat if 2 tanks)

(healer name) did healed X%, overhealed by Y%, and DPS'd for %Z
a) This healer's job was average
b) This healer's job was above average
c) This healer's job was below average
d) This healer was avoiding doing their job

(repeat if 2 healers)

(DPS name) did did X% of total DPS damage and Y% support, and carried threat for Z% of the time
a) This DPS' job was average
b) This DPS' job was above average
c) This DPS' job was below average
d) This DPS was avoiding doing their job

(repeat for each DPS)

Overall would you play with these players again?
a) Yes
b) No

To be fair, if SE tried to pop this survey on me every time, I would just mark everyone as the lowest possible score every time. I hate forced surveys.

[KisaiTenshi]

To be fair, if SE tried to pop this survey on me every time, I would just mark everyone as the lowest possible score every time. I hate forced surveys.

Well (to be completely honest), they do this in call centers to make the CSR (call center representative) responsible for intentionally bad calls, and they also realize that the most pissed off person will mark everyone down out of spite.

Those surveys tend to fall outside the 95% mark and aren't counted against the CSR. Now if the CSR was getting this EVERY time, then the problem is the CSR (or the skill queue they are put in.)

But the surveys do not replace monitored quality assessments. The survey only proves that you weren't paying attention to the customers needs. (When I worked a queue that was specifically giving people uninformative DMCA notices, I got mostly bad scores, because who would ever consider "you are ruining my business (selling counterfeits)" a good outcome.) What the customer doesn't realize is that those surveys would never ever count.

In the context of FFXIV, a survey for low-level content would have the highest weighting, while the hardest content would would have the lowest weighting, since less people play it. You would have to have a >50% low rating on a Coil run to be blocked from it, where as a >25% low score would be enough to be blocked from low level.

A player who "abuses" the survey system would have their weighting reduced, which in turn would likely result in them being unable to use the DF with that role if it was.

If you mark everyone low, you are marking yourself as low.

[Eidolon]

A player who "abuses" the survey system would have their weighting reduced, which in turn would likely result in them being unable to use the DF with that role if it was.

If you mark everyone low, you are marking yourself as low.

No offense, but your system is inherantly bad because:
1) It forces people to do it, or else "Risk marking yourself down"
2) Anything that inconveniences players will naturally see them just leaving it to the natural answers (Your idea of hitting esca)E
3) It should NEVER be forced on a player.

I don't mind an optional survey/option at the end. Optional is good. I always select "No" on optional surveys. But like I said, the moment you try and -force- it on me? That's when I'll just put everything was ****.

I like the current system of commendations. People will gravitate towards whatever they usually gravitate towards. Exceptional play, and some people might give you -extra- coms. But never forced. Never.

[Lemuria]

PLD is my main, but I avoid DF because of situations like this one...

Yikes, that's pretty hostile of them. Still, I'm glad you didn't give him or her the satisfaction of an early kick. Some people need to be taught a lesson or they'll never learn in the end.

I play a Paladin myself, and I've had my fair share of hostile players. Mercifully, I find most parties are quite happy to just get on with things, but there are always those passive-aggressive types (who are almost inevitably DPS jobs) which like to pull extra mobs just to speed through content quicker. This is often done regardless of whether the healer can keep up.

Still, my thoughts are that people just prefer playing DPS classes because they get to deal large amounts of damage. When you can visualize your contributions to the group, it ultimately feels a bit more rewarding.

[KisaiTenshi]

No offense, but your system is inherantly bad because:
1) It forces people to do it, or else "Risk marking yourself down"
2) Anything that inconveniences players will naturally see them just leaving it to the natural answers (Your idea of hitting esca)E
3) It should NEVER be forced on a player.

I don't mind an optional survey/option at the end. Optional is good. I always select "No" on optional surveys. But like I said, the moment you try and -force- it on me? That's when I'll just put everything was ****.

I like the current system of commendations. People will gravitate towards whatever they usually gravitate towards. Exceptional play, and some people might give you -extra- coms. But never forced. Never.

I didn't say it was forced, I said if you hit cancel, it just auto-scores as average. If a duty was awful, people would certainly go to town and mark down the bad actors. Likewise if it was exceptional and mark up the good ones. Whatever the average score is, is what you rated yourself.

To go back to my CSR example, the other site I worked for used to have positive and negative feedback, everyone had 98% or better feedback because people were outright terrified of being marked down. Literately, if you had 97.9% you were at risk of having your account suspended. People also knowingly bought feedback (RMT >_>) by buying downloadables from Chinese pirates. Then they removed negative feedback entirely because bad actors were using it as a way to hold each other hostage and was actively chasing people off the platform.

You don't make the score visible, because that causes retaliation. You only use it to weight the DF so that good players get faster queues by being matched together, and trolls get lumped together and either shape up or quit. As this thread has demonstrated, the game would be better of people would have some patience.

The only reason why it would not make good sense to implement it as is, is that it would take too long to do without knowing the difference between a "good" player and a "bad" player based only on numbers. People who only play with their friends/static using PF would never be given surveys.

[Noshpan]

The trolls are real. As a tank or healer, why should you waste time with DPS being jerks. But it's also unfair to the DPS who weren't being jerks, and were doing their job.

Speaking of trolling, had a healer in my Labyrinth alliance that refused to participate. When everyone in the party & other alliances started calling them out on it, the healer resorted to calling everyone "fags". Luckily he was quickly replaced after the Atomos fight. (Yes, I am quite aware that the Crystal Tower raids, and Atomos in particular, are prime fights that trolling occurs.)

[Darkobra]

It's not about being epeen, its about having to run a dungeon 60 times to get a drop and not wanting to effectively double or triple the amount of time the dungeon takes, and don't talk pf cause I have tried

That is genuinely your own fault for joining a random pug and expecting quality. If you were good, you'd be recognised and have people willing to help you as they'll help you in return. Seriously. It is all on you. Now you can do your duty finders, pray you find another person doing duty finders that will recognise you enough to take you in or you can join parties in the party finder, find a decent free company, be helpful and be helped.

If you join randoms, don't whine when you get random. If you don't talk to your party, don't whine when it's not organised. Everything that can go wrong in a party is entirely on you to organise it. If you can't, you're at the exact spot in life you belong in.

Enjoy your pugs.