So what is PLD good at?

[SirTaint]

Of course healers can dps which stance tanks are using, not going to discuss that.

But it's mathematical, if healer have less to heal, he can do more dps. What I'm wondering is which one the best? The bonus dps from tank in dps stance or the bonus dps from heal casting more attack spell?

Anybody made some test using a parser? I have the feeling that Boss Tanking should be done using dps stance, but I 'd love to put some objective evidence over what is just a feeling.

It is way more complicated then that. Coordinated healers will do 4 times the DPS as uncoordinated ones.

The real question is how much more healing is required when a tank is out of their tank stance? (for 99% of this game its next to nothing) The next question is how much MP is saved by skipping mechanics? But that fact is that we are so over geared at this point everyone should be contributing to DPS.

[Launched]

Block might be an RNG but it is also a tool which reduces healing required, which each healer will appreciate. Besides paladin has Bulwark which makes block almost 100%. Holmgang is very bad skill, if you are forced to use it and it actually takes effect (you would die without it), then you probably wiping anyway.

"Almost" being the key word. Even Bulwark is unreliable. I've seen (and been killed by) Flatten killing PLDs because Bulwark didn't proc a block. Healers never ever rely on a block/parry, they'll be precasting the same heals either way.

Holmgang's an amazing skill, you don't use it as a panic button. It guarantees you won't die from a tankbuster once every three minutes, one of the best cooldowns in the game. And it's not a problem for your healers either, because they'll have 4-5s to cast the Cure II they would be casting for any other cooldown anyway.

PLD's cooldowns aren't better than WAR's. IB = Rampart, with a shorter duration but it's also available way more often. IB+Vengeance is 44% mitigation for 6s (stronger than Sentinel) and 30% for another 9s. IB+Thrill is more reliable than Bulwark, giving 20% damage reduction and an extra 2k+ hp buffer guaranteed. IB+Convalescence is also a decent cooldown, but PLD can't just use Convalescence by itself.

[Zaft]

snip

You're looking at a very small snapshot of a fight. I'm referring to the fight as a whole. The PLD will take less damage through the course of the fight than the WAR will.

[Cabalabob]

Snip

You failed to consider tank stances. PLD with convalesce up has -20% damage taken and +30% healing recieved. That's stronger than a WAR with IB and defiance on which is 20% damage taken and 25% healing recieved.

Vengeance + IB is stronger than sentinel yes, but not stronger than sentinel when you also factor in shield oath putting it at about 55% damage taken. And the possibility of a block taking it down by another 30%.

As for bulwark, you should not be using that alone as mitigation for tank busters and should never need to, with a couple exceptions. Bulwark is something to use to mitigate auto attack damage and proc shield swipes, having almost every auto attack leading up to and after a tank buster can be just as effective mitigation as mitigating the tank buster itself.

[Zophar]

You failed to consider tank stances. PLD with convalesce up has -20% damage taken and +30% healing recieved. That's stronger than a WAR with IB and defiance on which is 20% damage taken and 25% healing recieved.

Just to point out, war can cross class the 20% convalescence, making it 45% healing potency. Anyway, carry on.

[elemental10]

Passive damage mitigation.

You do NOTHING and you still get benefits.

"But... WAR has more HP bla bla bla"

Yeah but I find surviving as a PLD is easier than as a WAR, considering mitigation plays a big role in tanking. And PLD got lots of that.

[Zophar]

Passive damage mitigation.

You do NOTHING and you still get benefits.

"But... WAR has more HP bla bla bla"

Yeah but I find surviving as a PLD is easier than as a WAR, considering mitigation plays a big role in tanking. And PLD got lots of that.

Straight comparison between Defiance and Shield Oath, I'm sorry, there literally is no functional difference. If you're talking about exclusively passively, really, you're talking about the difference between pld's block rate and war's parry rate, Which might be a difference, but it's not a game breaking difference. Sorry.

[elemental10]

Straight comparison between Defiance and Shield Oath, I'm sorry, there literally is no functional difference. If you're talking about exclusively passively, really, you're talking about the difference between pld's block rate and war's parry rate, Which might be a difference, but it's not a game breaking difference. Sorry.

Okay sure, it doesn't REALLY has a functional difference but in my experience, I survive better with PLD than WAR and that's my take on it.
Besides, PLD has both Block and Parry while WAR only has Parry. Yeah, it's not game breaking difference (otherwise SE would've "fixed" it) but its a plus towards PLD.

In light of some threads nowadays, I see that to some people, a fun class is an active class that requires you to actively pushing buttons at the right time and places. PLD is more towards pushing one button and that's it. In my opinion, that's what the class is good at. Making sure you have the right kind of thing, at the right time without making such a fuss about it. WAR has to stack up 5 wraths and then you have to Inner Beast to get that 20% mitigation but all PLD has to do is push the Rampart button and viola, you're good.

[Dynalon]

snip

In current state of the game block doesn't play crucial role, but it might in the expansion since we won't be overgearing content and healing output of healer won't be greater than raw damage taken by tanks, therefore anything which reduces damage taken by tank will count.

Holmgang is a terrible skill, it leaves you at dangerous hp levels, where even single aa swing will kill you. You won't make me thing otherwise, it's nowhere close Hallowed Ground period.

Comparing combination of IB+Vengeance with single cd (Sentinel) makes sense ..., Sentinel + Rampart says hello. No idea why are you comparing IB+Thrill with Bulwark, but for pure physical damage I would say Bulwark mitigates slightly more, depending which shield you use.

PLD cds are stronger, aside from those mentioned above, Convalescence on PLD has higher healing bonus, Awareness on PLD has longer duration, WAR can get them too but they are weaker.

Just to point out, war can cross class the 20% convalescence, making it 45% healing potency. Anyway, carry on.

I must have missed some elementary math lessons long time ago, but according to me Shield Oath (20% DR) + Convalescence (30% healing) > Defiance (20% healing) + Convalescence (20% healing)

No idea why people think that Defiance gives 25% healing bonus, while it is only 20%. Defiance is skill which is equal to shield oath, it just works bit differently, so it doesn't make sense to bring either of them to comparison. There is minor difference (it gives WAR bit more effective HP, 5% more to be precise, but that influences only skills like stoneskin or lustrate).

[Zophar]

Okay sure, it doesn't REALLY has a functional difference but in my experience, I survive better with PLD than WAR and that's my take on it.
Besides, PLD has both Block and Parry while WAR only has Parry. Yeah, it's not game breaking difference (otherwise SE would've "fixed" it) but its a plus towards PLD.

In light of some threads nowadays, I see that to some people, a fun class is an active class that requires you to actively pushing buttons at the right time and places. PLD is more towards pushing one button and that's it. In my opinion, that's what the class is good at. Making sure you have the right kind of thing, at the right time without making such a fuss about it. WAR has to stack up 5 wraths and then you have to Inner Beast to get that 20% mitigation but all PLD has to do is push the Rampart button and viola, you're good.

A key difference of course being that, a pld can potentially run out of cooldowns. A good war will be able to rely on Path + IB every. Single. Time. They need it. Plus additional CD's. It's like quality vs quantity. PLD has stronger mitigation, WAR has more frequent and reliable mitigation. PLD's shortest cooldown defensive is 90 seconds. WAR can IB every 20, with a free one via infuriate, every 60 seconds. Now personally, I'm not saying one way or another which is superior. As far as I'm concerned, each excels at different things, and at the end of the day, a good pld and a good war are entirely interchangable. Things are not as black and white as you seem to be arguing.

I must have missed some elementary math lessons long time ago, but according to me Shield Oath (20% DR) + Convalescence (30% healing) > Defiance (20% healing) + Convalescence (20% healing)

No idea why people think that Defiance gives 25% healing bonus, while it is only 20%. Defiance is skill which is equal to shield oath, it just works bit differently, so it doesn't make sense to bring either of them to comparison. There is minor difference (it gives WAR bit more effective HP, 5% more to be precise, but that influences only skills like stoneskin or lustrate).

I mixed up the HP boost (25%) and the healing boost (20%. Either way. It's still 40% healing boost.