A more summonery Summoner

[Akiza]

Although this idea of yours may work for a small Primal such as a Chirada sized Garuda. You are forgetting about large Primals such as Leviathan. A SMN would never be able to transform fully into Leviathan even if it was just a smaller version of the model like Chirada. It is a long serpentine model, the body and tail of the model would get in the way of everyone's view/camera angle, especially during a Dungeon run where often the party fights in confined spaces. Therefore it would be impossible to implement, so no it is far from mechanically in line with other jobs.

Mechanics are not just about the damage output and algorithms of various abilities. When it comes to something that changes the player model into a totally new model, all sorts of things come into play. From shifting animation states, collision detection, movement, abilities, as well as the actual model change process itself and how it effects the base stats of the SMN's natural state. Leviathan is the perfect example as to why your idea will not work, Bismarke would also be an issue, and even Ifrit as he is a quadruped. Having any of these running around the corridors of a dungeon with a party would be a major ball ache for every other member, especially when trying to look out for enemy AoE telegraphs and trying to complete dungeon mechanics.

However if the SMN only took on a small appearance change, like gained Garuda's wings for example but still remained humanoid and the same size (like the SMN Tank idea I posted a while ago) then your idea would be technically feasible. But as to transforming into a full Primal model it will never happen, that is an irrefutable fact I'm afraid.

However this entire idea of yours seems a prime example of what I was saying about people wanting SMN to be in some way "special". If your suggested "Incarnate Summon" were to actually be implemented it would most likely be done so the same way as Bahamut Trance. A head of the Primal would briefly appear over the SMN then disappear with no model change. The SMN would then start building Aether stacks of the Primal summoned to use on abilities.

However there is a big flaw in this, which I have stated before. Which is that there is no feasible reason why SMN should be given a Trance/Transformation of every Primal. With NO ELEMENTAL WHEEL IN PLAY, each Trance/Transformation would be the same as the last. The SMN would not be gaining anything new to the job game play wise and it would just stagnate as every level cap the only new thing it gets is a new Trance/Transformation....and for that reason it is unlikely to happen. All jobs will need to be kept fresh with each new level cap, giving them new ways of dealing with combat and to keep the player engaged. So we may be able to see one or two more Trances from the other Elder Primals, but we won't get anything more beyond that, certainly not one of every Primal....for the exact same reason why SE chose not to give us anymore unique Egi.

I would say that for the next level cap it is more likely the Egi will play a larger role, to finally give SMN a means of using the Egi as more than just a turret/soak with poor AI.

Incarnate Summoning would work if the model got shrunk down to Hyur Highlander scale like job quest Egis. Like the Trance SE can't do it for every primal becuase it wouldn't add anything other than visual effects so there will be 3 trances/transformations like there are 3 Egis caster, tank and melee. I think next level cap Summoners will be able to increase there damge by transforming into a Hyur Highlander scaled version of Bahamut while also gaining Alexander Trance which gives us reduction in damge.

[SoloWingMetatron]

Incarnate Summoning would work if the model got shrunk down to Hyur Highlander scale like job quest Egis. Like the Trance SE can't do it for every primal becuase it wouldn't add anything other than visual effects so there will be 3 trances/transformations like there are 3 Egis caster, tank and melee. I think next level cap Summoners will be able to increase there damge by transforming into a Hyur Highlander scaled version of Bahamut while also gaining Alexander Trance which gives us reduction in damge.

I would happily have 2 or more trances, as long as they each brought something unique to the table. But then it's just the Egi issue all over again. This is why I believe the Trance system lends itself better to Elder Primal summoning, since there are only 3 known Elder Primals at this time. An Odin Trance could give SMN a single target instant kill ability for trash mobs (Zantetsuken) which would have a long cool down meaning it can't be spammed, but would still give SMN more burst potential. It would be great on the Goals in Titan EX, still might be kinda OP though lol. Little is known about Belias though so not sure what his Trance would bring.

I should stress that I think an appearance change during a Trance would be awesome. However thinking realistically, I believe it would be better if any appearance changes were not too crazy. Changing into a full miniature Primal seems very impractical and since the SMN is not absorbing all of the Primals Aether (like Iceheart did) then I'm not sure it even works form a lore point of view either. Since the SMN is only using a portion of the Aether it would make sense that they would only partially transform when in Trance. For example when in Bahamut Trance the SMN would gain Bahamut's horns and a small set of his wings. After all the jobs are meant to be equal, so it would go against that concept if any one of them were to be in some way more impressive, even if that is just visually.

However we have to remember the Egi are not going to be forgotten about, they too will have to receive updates in order to stay relevant to the job. If all DPS abilities start coming for the SMN alone (via Trance,burst, or DoTs) then soon we wont even need to summon the Egi at all. Hence why I think in a future expansion we will see the Egi be brought into the mix for a new rotation.

[Svalitz]

I'm so tired of threads like these.

So so tired.

But not because of what the OP is saying. In fact it's the opposite.

I'm tired of our community making excuses for the poor design of Summoner in this game. And shutting down anyone who even suggests that it should be revamped and that Summoner should be... well... a SUMMONER. THE REASON SE ISN'T CHANGING THIS JOB IS BECAUSE EVERYONE KEEPS DEFENDING THE CURRENT DESIGNS. I played Summoner for 10+ years in XI, but I refuse to touch it in this game because it's a watered down version of what a Summoner should be.

The Egi's are crap. Summoner looks like crap. Now they aren't even adding new Egi's!? The Lore can be changed to make sense of mid-sized primal-looking pets. Oh, you don't like seeing PROPERLY SIZED summon pets in battle? Turn them off.

nuff said.

/endrant.


Edit: Apparently there's a limit to # of posts per day, so Asierid I will have to respond to your reply (which once again is full of the typical "Go play XI then" attitude...ugh) later, but for now I will leave you this. XIV's is the ONLY summoner job that is "different", and it's different in a negative way. That is my point.

[Asierid]

I played Summoner for 10+ years in XI, but I refuse to touch it in this game because it's a watered down version of what a Summoner should be.

That's great. XI is over there, go play it. I'm tired of the whole "I played XI it should be lyke dis". Cool, we don't care. This is XIV, a different game with different things. Going off on some wild tangent about how things are not like Everquest doesn't help your cause.

what a Summoner should be.

Which is what exactly? Like XI? Too bad that version of SMN is completely different from the majority of FF games.

So basically, you're mad that SMN isn't what you wanted? Good thing there are other jobs to play and other games that "did SMN correctly".

I'll take those rose glasses from you now, they seem to be making you crazy.

[pandabearcat]

The one thing I agree with is I'd like the egi's to be more detailed.

The blobby egi's currently look very cheap and not the...kind of "sharp" that I'd expect.

It would be pretty easy to solve too...make spikes more pronounced, change the softly glowing hue to something a bit shinier, with sharper edges and corners, and up the texture/polygon count of titan egi. Make him look...muscular bouldery, instead of fat blubber.

Playstyle wise, aside from mana issues (much less of a problem now) I don't have much complaints.

[Saggo]

TL;DR: There are only 3 games that pre-made Summoners alternate abilities. 14 is an FF game and can be critiqued against the series. Of the summoning trends easily seen, 14 falls short at all of them: primary ability, primary damage sourcry at-will spike damage, and persistence.

This is why there are always complaints and a lot of them.

I still enjoy the job and it's still my main.

Yes, my first post is a SMN complaint.

ALL summoners had other spells and used those primarily.

I agree to a degree, but if you look at the trends, mechanical and thematic, it's only partially true. I like to include Tactics because it's a very iconic implementation of the job system.

Mechanically, the most often, if not only, reason to not always summon is some form of MP management in overworld or dungeon crawls. But this was important for white mages, black mages, any magic user really, not a summoner only theme.

In 14, MP management is a fight-to-fight basis, not the entire dungeon crawl. It's no different of a balance with a black mage fighting the entire dungeon with his black magic.

Not always the best munchkin damage combo, but good damage, and telling someone to only use the best combinations in a single player game is a touchy and subjective debate.

Thematically, in the games with a job systems and the summoner job (including the very first incarnation of it), 3, 5, and Tactics, that's all the job did. Not so in 14.

Only three games had pre-defined summoner characters with alternate abilities, 3, 9, and 10. Two of them it was still their primary source of damage without some trickery of the mechanics, not so in 14.

Of the games with the summon ability assignable, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 12, and Tactics, to various degrees of efficiency you can create a useful job combo that relied primarily on that ability. Not really so in 14.

In all the games with the summoning ability, 3 all through 13, it was used most often for at-will spike damage, not as a concurrent minor supplement. Not so in 14.

The most recent games, 10, 11, 12, and 13, actively developed the trend into interactive summons, acting persistently and also used for primarily at-will spike damage. Actually one of the few areas 14 continued, but very halfheartedly given their limited abilities and supplemental damage.

14 also took away a lot of versatility from SMN, itself a growing trend in the series, when it comes to healing, buffing, debuffing, and crowd-control. But most people understand that it's an artifact of the Tank/Heal/DPS system. It's just a head-scratcher that they took all our healing and gave it to SCH.




Of the jobs given to me to play, I personally enjoy this one the most. While I don't care about DoTs as primary damage, I think the job (absent of any series trends) is mechanically sound, and I really like pet mechanics and versatile jobs.

But SE made 14 a Final Fantasy game, and they very deliberately called this job Summoner. It is not unreasonable to critique the game and the jobs against the series. They ignored time-honored traditions, both old and modern. It's easy to see why people, myself included, are so frustrated with their choice of implementation.

And it's easy to see why it seems like there are a lot of whiny SMNs. It's not just one thing SMN did different. Each theme or mechanic SMN bucks will frustrate a different group of people and SMN disregarded a lot of time-honored traditions.

Which is what exactly? Like XI? Too bad that version of SMN is completely different from the majority of FF games.

Well no, it actually did pretty well at continuing the trends, it was their primary ability like 3, 5, and Tactics. It was their primary damage source of damage, like 3, 5, 9, and 10. It was primarily at-will spike damage, like... all of them. It was a versatile job, like most of them. And it provided a persistent summon, like 10 and continued in 12 and 13.

[Akiza]

The reason people complained about Summoner because it was filling the traditional role of a Red Mage with a Summoner skin which was frustrating. In Heavesward SE decided to have the Summoner focus more on Summoning Magic by having them harness the power of Bahamut and gaining his abilities which the Summoner should've had in the 1st place but a little more neutral like gaining Primal Aether and going into Primal Trance.

[Asierid]

Well no, it actually did pretty well at continuing the trends, it was their primary ability like 3, 5, and Tactics. It was their primary damage source of damage, like 3, 5, 9, and 10. It was primarily at-will spike damage, like... all of them. It was a versatile job, like most of them. And it provided a persistent summon, like 10 and continued in 12 and 13.

Those 3 examples are nothing like X/XI, which everyone is mentioning. SMN in every other instance was nothing but a spell that did spike damage (not even a pet) at the cost of high MP with no control over the "pet". Otherwise you were a watered down magic class. X and XI changed this by allowing the player some control over the pet and giving the player more utility outside of being a ghetto black/white mage.

Two different methods. Everyone complains about wanting the X/XI version without thinking about not only the implementation of such a system at this stage, but the fact that the dev team wants it to be different from XI, so it won't happen anyway. You can summon primal spirits. You control them. You are a summoner.

This isn't XI, which is what people want it to be.

[Saggo]

Those 3 examples are nothing like X/XI, which everyone is mentioning. SMN in every other instance was nothing but a spell that did spike damage (not even a pet) at the cost of high MP with no control over the "pet". Otherwise you were a watered down magic class. X and XI changed this by allowing the player some control over the pet and giving the player more utility outside of being a ghetto black/white mage.

Well, yes, thank you for the history lesson, but I assure you it wasn't necessary. I've played every numbered game and numbered sequels. I've been playing or watching Final Fantasy for nearly two decades. I had the Final Fantasy Wiki up when I typed that. I can even give you numbers. 7 of the numbered games were instant spells will splash graphics, for 11 years of history. 5 of them had persistent pets, of which FF11 is apart of and is 14 years of history. 5:7 is not an insignificant ratio. I even gave specific examples of each trend and the titles that exemplified them.

So yes, I will again reiterate that 11 was more like the Final Fantasy series Summoner than 14. It did Summoner better, weighed against the series.

Two different methods. Everyone complains about wanting the X/XI version without thinking about not only the implementation of such a system at this stage, but the fact that the dev team wants it to be different from XI, so it won't happen anyway. You can summon primal spirits. You control them. You are a summoner.

This isn't XI, which is what people want it to be.

You seem to be confusing two different arguments, granted it was a long post. I'm not frustrated that 14 isn't like 11. I'm not demanding that it be like 11. I'm frustrated with and criticizing Squenix for throwing out 11 titles and 25 years worth of a game series in favor of WoW's Warlock.

If Squenix didn't want their game critiqued against the series, they shouldn't have called it Final Fantasy XIV. They chose to leverage their series for marketing and mechanics, so now we are allowed to do that.

[Alberel]

Those 3 examples are nothing like X/XI, which everyone is mentioning. SMN in every other instance was nothing but a spell that did spike damage (not even a pet) at the cost of high MP with no control over the "pet". Otherwise you were a watered down magic class. X and XI changed this by allowing the player some control over the pet and giving the player more utility outside of being a ghetto black/white mage.

Two different methods. Everyone complains about wanting the X/XI version without thinking about not only the implementation of such a system at this stage, but the fact that the dev team wants it to be different from XI, so it won't happen anyway. You can summon primal spirits. You control them. You are a summoner.

This isn't XI, which is what people want it to be.

The thing is FFXI's SMN was mechanically sound, just very poorly balanced. There was actually no reason to change it and Yoshi's cited reason for doing so is incredibly misguided.

The reason Yoshi didn't want to implement FFXIV's SMN like XI's was because he thought XI's incarnation was unpopular due to its passive gameplay. The reality is that it was nothing to do with passive gameplay. EVERY job in XI had a lot of passive gameplay simply due to the resource systems the game used (MP was slow to regen, TP required dozens of autoattacks to regen). XI's SMN was unpopular due to it having such ridiculous MP costs to keep the pets out and an absolutely stupid shared cooldown for all its skills; it was just pathetically weak as a result of poor balancing and zero attention from the devs for years.

If they had simply lowered the damage on some of their abilities, lowered the cooldowns proportionally and entirely removed the shared cooldown across all skills SMN could have been well balanced, fun and popular.

XI's incarnation of SMN is thematically one of the best ways to have done it in an MMO setting. You have to realise that the traditional nuke-style summons would not work in an MMO simply because the job would end up playing like a BLM. SMN simply has to be a pet class in order to ensure it plays differently to the other casters. XI accomplished that very well mechanically; the problems all stemmed from poor balance. When the dev team decides to implement a job like SMN in a way that is different to XI (where it worked well for an MMO) yet uses entirely incorrect reasoning to justify that change then everyone here has a valid reason to be complaining about that difference.

The 'this isn't XI' argument doesn't really hold up anyway. This isn't WoW either yet we're stuck with a WoW warlock playstyle...