A more summonery Summoner

[SoloWingMetatron]

I have a theory regarding the relentless SMN debate.

It is without question that SMN and the Summons themselves are one of the biggest icons of FF history, right up there with Chocobos and Moogles. The job itself has always been revered as a legendary job, with immense and wondrous power that always seems to shine above the rest as something "special"

However in an MMO like ARR where ALL jobs are considered equal. Is the issue just simply that the majority of the SMN player base are in someway entitled? Have we grown so used to the idea of SMN being so legendary and "special" throughout the history of FF, that we feel we should be in someway "special" even with in ARR?

There have been many discussions here that suggest that a lot of SMN's either consciously or subconsciously are entitled and want to be "special". Take this Incarnate Summon idea from Akiza for example, a SMN that can transform into a Primal....that is a power that would indeed make SMN more "special".

Even the new Bahamut Trance panders to an entitled player base. A job that can summon forth a portion of Bahamut and then be possessed by him to use his power. So for all intents and purposes the SMN essentially becomes Bahamut. A feat that no other job could ever come close to and is therefore "special". However in the case of Bahamut Trance, the elements that make it "special" are purely superficial (visuals and lore). The mechanics themselves are equal to that of any other job. So in that regard does it really matter if the job appears to be more "special" than the rest? as long as these "special" elements stay superficial.

Whether you play SMN or not, or are familiar with the history of SMN throughout the FF series or not. The fact of the matter is it's always going to be a hard task to make an OP "special" job conform to the mechanics and equality of an MMO, whilst keeping it true to what makes the job so iconic. There will always be give and take and there will always be people wanting more. But we need to realize the FFXIV SMN will never be as crazy as a SMN from a single player game, and that's ok. You want giant ass Summons that nuke the world? Then wait for FFXV! In the mean time just enjoy this SMN for what it is, not what it can't be.

[pandabearcat]

In most FF games summons were actually far worse than actually doing pretty much anything else.

So...if thats what people want, then whomp whomp.

Storyline wise there have been a few summoners but they were always tragic heroes that had to go die or were maidens in distress or what not (Terra is a slight exception, but not really).

Not many guy summoners.

Also also, summons were mostly used to tank in later FF games (10 and later) and in many they were just bad, bad. Flashy, but bad.

So I'm not sure why anyone would want that. Flashier graphics? Sure I'm all for it, except until you realize you can't see any void zones. Being more egi-focused? Hell no.

And there isn't a summoner in the series who isn't just as powerful or more so doing things other than summoning.

[SoloWingMetatron]

In most FF games summons were actually far worse than actually doing pretty much anything else.

Storyline wise there have been a few summoners but they were always tragic heroes that had to go die or were maidens in distress or what not (Terra is a slight exception, but not really).

And there isn't a summoner in the series who isn't just as powerful or more so doing things other than summoning.

Well I must stress that I love the FFXIV's SMN as it is! It is the only job I really play and without it I'm not sure I would play FFXIV at all to be honest. I love the Bahamut Trance and I love the fact we will be getting more Egi via glamour. I just hope the Egi AI is improved to be more responsive.

However in terms of SMN throughout FF as a whole, about half of the main series titles have had a SMN job, so in fact there has been quite a number of SMN's.

Also in regards to the actual Summons being worse as far as damage goes, I disagree to some extent. FFX and FFXII in particular allowed for very strong Summons, in FFX you could customize their stats and break their damage limits so they can be just as powerful as any other ability in the game. It's all just a case of preference. As for FFXII there were a number of optional Summons that were actually stronger than the final boss and with their signature move you could take him out as well as any other boss super easy. Spin off FF titles such as Tactics also gave Summons a worthwhile use.

Furthermore in regards to the SMN/Summons in the story of FF titles, the Summons have almost always been important to the story in some way and have always been depicted as deity like entities. In FFIV we had Rydia who hails from a secret "special" land of SMN's, in FFVI we had Terra who's father was a Summon! Giving her special abilities like having a Summon form as well as a plot point where she struggles with her identity as a Summon hybrid. In FFIX both Dagger and Eiko hail from yet again a legendary "special" land of SMN's, and throughout a number of points in the story we see the Summons lay waste to towns and cities (Bahamut, Atomos) We also see a scene where Dagger and Eiko save the day with Alexander (Holy Judgment) All of these were major plot points. In FFX we see Yuna a SMN who must go on a pilgrimage acquiring her Summons through a series of trials so she can ultimately acquire the Final Aeon and defeat Sin. Which was believed to be the only way to defeat Sin and save the world. FFX was all about SMN's...

I would also like to point out that Terra was a strong character, so not sure what your "but not really" remark refers to. Also Yuna was not a tragic hero as she never died, she went all the way and defeated Sin and came out of it alive!

But all of that is just semantics as the fact still remains that SMN/Summons are one of FF's biggest icons, always have been since FFIII onwards and always will be.

[pandabearcat]

This is what I mean, they were important storyline wise but if we strip that out essentially a Summon was just a long, strong attack, that hits the same damage caps as any other attack.

What I meant by "few" was that in every game there is usually at most 1 summoner (ff9 had 2). FF13 doesn't count because...while every char had a summon they weren't like, "summoners".

In FFX every attack can break 9999, and so there wasn't any reason to really use summons. Furthermore, as any character can do anything anyone else can (aside from limit breaks), you get diluted even more and Yuna could be like, a melee class if you wanted her to be.

Summons were usually strong attacks that gradually got weaker as you went, because everything else got far stronger far quicker. Even in FF7 with KotR LB's did more damage and could be mimed too. Also quad cut, etc did far more damage in the same amount of animation time.

So they were flashy, cool thematically awesome things that didn't actually pan out to be that powerful. So again, it seems like a lot of people want cool and flashy, which I'm fine with (if you don't mind screen epilepsy) but thinking that Summoners should be all about the summon is kind of neglecting the fact that every summoner had a ton of other things they could do. Ignoring slightly FFT/FFTA's summoner, because really Summons in that were just big AoEs, and they were just a black mage.

So the biggest thing missing is:

where is my FF crystal chronicles? This game is all about crystals, THAT GAME IS ALL ABOUT CRYSTALS.

LET ME FUSE MY SPELLS!

Whats that? Alliance BLM LB3 + SMN LB3 = MIND BLOWINGLY AWESOME?

Yes please.

[SoloWingMetatron]

Ahh yeah it is true there were few SMN's in each title, however you could argue that shows they are indeed "special". But you are right that in many cases the Summons were more about the visual aspect of things, by being an over the top, dramatic sequence. Which is cool if that is what people are living for, but that won't happen for FFXIV's SMN. Mechanically it is near impossible to have a giant flashy Egi/Primal. I think we may see a slight Egi size increase via a new trait we unlock but who knows.

With FFX though although as you say even regular attacks can break the damage limit, I still used Summons a lot. Merely because I loved them! and I was not losing out on anything as I was still dealing the same damage, so that's what I meant about preference.

But before I digress further, my main point is that a lot of the SMN player base seem entitled by wanting these big flashy abilities that no other job can compare to. Even if it is all just superficial visuals it is still putting forth the image that SMN is in some way more special than any of the other jobs. I mean it's not like we get this kind of debate with any other job so it must stem from the fact the job throughout the series has always been unique and given the image of flashy, over the top abilities.

However all the jobs in FFXIV are supposed to be equal, so to make one job rise above the rest, even if it is just visually is arguably still unfair. The only way we will feasibly get a giant flashy Summon is via LB3, nothing else would work.

[m3eansean]

But before I digress further, my main point is that a lot of the SMN player base seem entitled by wanting these big flashy abilities that no other job can compare to. Even if it is all just superficial visuals it is still putting forth the image that SMN is in some way more special than any of the other jobs. .

Wrong interpretation. By and large, all they are asking for, is for the primary damage to be dealt by the summon, not with poison DoTs.

[pandabearcat]

Yea but again thats not what any summoner did, ever. Summons were like, a small part of what summoners did.

None of them had summons up 100% of the time unless it was like FFX and you just wanted to completely ignore your other chars, which, isn't the way most people played the game.

ALL summoners had other spells and used those primarily.

[SoloWingMetatron]

Wrong interpretation. By and large, all they are asking for, is for the primary damage to be dealt by the summon, not with poison DoTs.

That would be impossible for a game like FFXIV...All this proves is that the people calling for this have no real knowledge of games development. FFXIV's design mechanics means all of SMN's primary damage can NEVER come solely from the Egi. If the Egi were ever to die the SMN would be screwed. So that means at best all we can ever have is a balance between DPS from the SMN, and DPS from the Egi. That is a fact that can't be altered whether these people understand that or not.....SE are not abandoning the Egi so we will most likely have this balance going beyond HW. We already have Enkindle...people also forget that we are yet to see what new traits will be unlocked for jobs at lvl60. SMN could get a trait that increases the size of the Egi (like the Ifrit in the benchmark) and gain a DPS increase for all we know....

Furthermore pandabearcat is right, every SMN in existence has had strong abilities outside Summon magic. I would also like to point out that there has been a number of FF's where the SMN has relinquished their ability to Summon. In FFIX Dagger lost her ability to Summon when Queen Brahne took her pendant, which contained all her Summon magic. Yuna sacrificed all her Aeons in FFX and in FFXIII the Eidolons also perished.

I would also like to point out that I said "A lot" of the SMN player base, not all..but I should stress that I'm not trying to shoot down peoples want's just for the sake of it. I am merely stating a fact. Which is that the game would have to be totally reworked if SMN was ever to have the Egi as their sole form of DPS and that's never going to happen.

[Akiza]

Superficial abilities that are based around visuals and lore to make the job special is fine otherwise the Black Mage wouldn't be in Final Fantasy XIV. All of the Black Mage spells are simply damage spells even though visually they cast fire, thunder, blizzard and Flare mechanically they work the same as other jobs. Visual and lore wise SE can give the Summoner the ability to summon the primal by transforming into it as long as it mechanically in line with other jobs.

[SoloWingMetatron]

Visual and lore wise SE can give the Summoner the ability to summon the primal by transforming into it as long as it mechanically in line with other jobs.

Although this idea of yours may work for a small Primal such as a Chirada sized Garuda. You are forgetting about large Primals such as Leviathan. A SMN would never be able to transform fully into Leviathan even if it was just a smaller version of the model like Chirada. It is a long serpentine model, the body and tail of the model would get in the way of everyone's view/camera angle, especially during a Dungeon run where often the party fights in confined spaces. Therefore it would be impossible to implement, so no it is far from mechanically in line with other jobs.

Mechanics are not just about the damage output and algorithms of various abilities. When it comes to something that changes the player model into a totally new model, all sorts of things come into play. From shifting animation states, collision detection, movement, abilities, as well as the actual model change process itself and how it effects the base stats of the SMN's natural state. Leviathan is the perfect example as to why your idea will not work, Bismarke would also be an issue, and even Ifrit as he is a quadruped. Having any of these running around the corridors of a dungeon with a party would be a major ball ache for every other member, especially when trying to look out for enemy AoE telegraphs and trying to complete dungeon mechanics.

However if the SMN only took on a small appearance change, like gained Garuda's wings for example but still remained humanoid and the same size (like the SMN Tank idea I posted a while ago) then your idea would be technically feasible. But as to transforming into a full Primal model it will never happen, that is an irrefutable fact I'm afraid.

However this entire idea of yours seems a prime example of what I was saying about people wanting SMN to be in some way "special". If your suggested "Incarnate Summon" were to actually be implemented it would most likely be done so the same way as Bahamut Trance. A head of the Primal would briefly appear over the SMN then disappear with no model change. The SMN would then start building Aether stacks of the Primal summoned to use on abilities.

However there is a big flaw in this, which I have stated before. Which is that there is no feasible reason why SMN should be given a Trance/Transformation of every Primal. With NO ELEMENTAL WHEEL IN PLAY, each Trance/Transformation would be the same as the last. The SMN would not be gaining anything new to the job game play wise and it would just stagnate as every level cap the only new thing it gets is a new Trance/Transformation....and for that reason it is unlikely to happen. All jobs will need to be kept fresh with each new level cap, giving them new ways of dealing with combat and to keep the player engaged. So we may be able to see one or two more Trances from the other Elder Primals, but we won't get anything more beyond that, certainly not one of every Primal....for the exact same reason why SE chose not to give us anymore unique Egi.

I would say that for the next level cap it is more likely the Egi will play a larger role, to finally give SMN a means of using the Egi as more than just a turret/soak with poor AI.