A more summonery Summoner

[Asierid]

If Squenix didn't want their game critiqued against the series, they shouldn't have called it Final Fantasy XIV. They chose to leverage their series for marketing and mechanics, so now we are allowed to do that.

Let's see...

But SE made 14 a Final Fantasy game, and they very deliberately called this job Summoner. It is not unreasonable to critique the game and the jobs against the series. They ignored time-honored traditions, both old and modern. It's easy to see why people, myself included, are so frustrated with their choice of implementation.

Except that the concept of XIV's SMN is hardly against Final Fantasy series lore just by how it works. So in order for it to be a FF game, we have to go back to SMN being black mages with a one hit wonder button that needs to be flashy and not really useful in anything. So, by this logic, we need to go backwards, game play wise, in order for people to be happy because a majority of FF games had this mechanic for the class, therefore they should have stuck with it since it was a "tradition". Or you can just jump on the "It's not XI, I WAN BIG SMNZ" bandwagon and ignore the dev interviews which stated that you should go play it if you want XI.

Got it.

Again. FF series dictates that a summoner is someone who summons primal entities, it's the common thread in the class throughout the series. You do that here just like you do in XI. You have a handful of abilities that your pet can use that you can control, like in XI. The only distinct difference between the two is the inability to delve into healing magic (Again, a first in X/XI. It was mainly a DPS before then). So yes, -we- are wanting it to be like XI. SMN was and has always been a watered down DPS role with minor support options. Just because two games out of the 14 use them a healers doesn't make it a gold standard.

It summons. It controls them. It does mainly DPS. Fits into the majority of the series just fine. Everyone in here doesn't want this game to be XI apparently, yet the first thing they want when explanations go out are for XI-like abilities, regardless of the classes past. Sounds like wanting it to be like XI to me.

Stuff

It doesn't fit into the trinity, as explained above. Doing SMN the way it was in XI will only result in it being like XI, useless compared to other classes that excel in the role, and unpopular. I didn't mind SMN in XI at all, but to attempt to work that into how this game works would only result in the class being broken (OP or UP)...again. Best to leave it as it is and work in summons and summon abilities as we go along into further games. At least they gave SMN the respect to balance out their abilties and give them a solid stat spread for once...

Least SMN is in line with everyone else (minus the cap on Bane, that makes no sense) now.

[Saggo]

You really want this to be all about XI, don't you.

[Asierid]

I could really care less.

SMN is fine how it is now. Basing the entire comment on how XI did SMN better essentially twists the entire argument into "I want it like this because I liked this", whether you admit it or not. A proper retort to this would be "seeing what we would like done with what we have". Not, "why can't what we have be like this instead, it was better". You can word it any which way you prefer, but admitting that you take a liking to XI's summoner, then go on saying how you don't want it to be like XI, but say XIV is plain wrong with how summoner is done with no fixes...means you want it to be like XI. Especially since this "traditional summoner" you speak of is closer to XIV's summoner then XI's.

Kind of set yourself up for that one.

[Saggo]

That absolutism is why the summoner argument always turns into bickering.

If paying attention to 11 games of history only means going backwards to you, then yes, that will be the only argument you ever see. You will only think the argument is about 11 if someone liked 11. Fortunately for the rest of us, it's possible to follow what was set in the previous games (i.e. tradition/history/trends) and still innovate (i.e. not backwards). Innovation is not limited to ignoring it all.

What I showed is why people were frustrated with it, why they were valid frustrations, and why there are so many people frustrated, the part you seemed to miss or ignore. And yes, it was so much more than Summoner=hazprimal and 14 should be 11, I really don't need to rewrite what I already wrote.

SMN is fine how it is now.

You missed the part where I said the job in 14 is mechanically sound. It's not a bad job, just a bad job to be labeled summoner.

Especially since this "traditional summoner" you speak of is closer to XIV's summoner then XI's.

Kind of set yourself up for that one.

It really is not, and I really did not.

[Higashikata]

It really is not, and I really did not.

It kinda is actually...

[Havenchild]

Saggo, I'm sorry dude but you are falling on your face here.

First off, let's analyze this Summoner is not a summoner argument? Define what makes a Summoner exactly.

1) Summoning epic beings/deitys to execute skills. - It does not work in this MMO. Nor would it, if they tried. SMNs would add to an insurmountable amount of clutter to the field if these beings were on the field of this size that would lead to increased difficulty seeing and thus, bam, be an inconvenience to the party. Imagine for a second doing mechanics that are already hard to see like tethers in T11 depending on some angles with a giant boss like that. Now imagine bigger beings to be present on the field. It's silly, it will add more clutter for everyone, add more rendering so people with less powerful consoles or PCs will have more trouble. All around a terrible mess.

Now lets say we got the big deity's to perform a single skill with a few min CD to it. The same people complaining about the current SMN, would absolutely still say this is not Summoner enough. So all of this is just a setup for the next argument.

2) SMNs not focused around the pet instead of the job & FFXI. - All SMNs in FF as a whole, have been a Summoner second but largely maintained primary roles of either BLM / WHM mostly. In this incarnation it's a poison type/debilitating mage, something to set it aside from simple WHM/BLM that already have defined roles. If you wanted more pet / interaction, I don't think people want added skills for this, because to me, people already don't know how to press anything other then Contagion. The added difficulty that will come to the class will come in Heavensward anyway so you will have your interaction with more pet skills but I definitely feel the argument constantly leans towards what SMN did in FFXI, a better healer then a DPS when it was outclassed by almost every other main/sub combo in the DPS field. Not to mention, SMNs usually doubled up as a WHM for FFXI again, a problem with the current implementation of the trinity in FFXIV. So yes it does come back to FFXI, because that was the only implementation of SMN that was slightly different from the rest and yet the only one to measure the class against, in an MMO setting.

Ultimately, the problem is the crybaby summoner player base, that can't simply accept that summoner is not the pseudo BLM/ WHM it has functioned as before, but apparently lack the awareness that it simply wouldn't work well as a combo class here not when we have a more stricter, party formation and less flexibility in terms of what a composition could consist of. If we already have classes that can perform better as a healer, then it needs to be a DPS. It then needs to stand up and against BLM (as well as the rest) while offering something different. The funny thing though, is I can almost guarantee that if SMN was top DPS right now, this wouldn't even be an issue, because all of those threads would be shut down immediately for people who try to complain when they are the top already. The class at the moment, fits the "only one of it's kind" and will branch into some new stuff in Heavensward and beyond. At current? FFXIV's SMN is on route to becoming the most unique one of all the FF series but meanwhile people still trying to make it a BLM/WHM 2.0. I'll keep it how it is here, if you want different, don't play it, play FFXI or take a back seat and see how it evolves.

Funny thing is, the same people who make this particular complaint tend to not be playing it at current. Why do I get the feeling that after they see how difficult it is to get high DPS on the class, they would wind up switching to something else simpler anyway? This argument is a joke and probably one of the reasons why people don't respect SMN complaints because this topic just sounds stupid to complain about at this point.

[Asierid]

Why do I get the feeling that after they see how difficult it is to get high DPS on the class, they would wind up switching to something else simpler anyway? This argument is a joke and probably one of the reasons why people don't respect SMN complaints because this topic just sounds stupid to complain about at this point.

Nostalgia, nothing more.

The class works. Hell, it got some of the biggest issues addressed while keeping in line with FF lore by channeling primal aether through one's self with Bahamut. Gameplay wise, they finally have a solid stat to stack that makes DoTs more effective while being given actual AoE and cooldowns. The large part complaints lie in the fact that it is different and are not founded by anything other than personal reflection on XI. The other are mad simply because they didn't get a new summon, which is pointless because it would more than likely be bad compared to Ifrit and Garuda.

It really is not

It really is. I await any sort of factual information to tell me how it is not similar to the majority of summoners in other games, keep XI out of it this time.

and I really did not.

You did. You walk into a thread titled: "A more summonery Summoner" and attempt to defend the masses in this thread by stating the following:

So yes, I will again reiterate that 11 was more like the Final Fantasy series Summoner than 14. It did Summoner better, weighed against the series.

You even went on to reiterate that statement. Not only are you wrong on that front, as XIV's summoner is more akin to older FF games in terms of a magic DPS who summons entities as opposed to the newer entries of the series; but you also keep stating the fact that XI's summoner is better than current, which is what this thread is about (Since the original post wants to add spells to SMN that are eerily similar to XI's SMN). I fail to see how you are doing anything except complaining that XI was better and that XIV should follow that gameplay for the job.

Yes. You set yourself up with roundabout (opinionated) logic hidden behind a massive (and somewhat false) FF history which most of us already know instead of giving us actual fixes/problems with the current system we have.

Point of my entire argument to this thread: SMN summons primals, as with FF Lore. SMN controls primals and primal abilities, no different than XI. SMN has abilities that buff primals, no different than XI. SMN does respectable damage and isn't held back by a pitiful attempt at making them "hybrids" as they were before. SMN is going to be given what could be the biggest buff to a DPS in this game so far. So...why are we complaining again? Because you didn't get Ramuh or actual primals instead of egis (Read XIV lore for once BTW, there's a reason for that)? Boo hoo. SMN got way more than everyone else did in both the lore and game play department, and then some...

[Akiza]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oP4hj4CGBs
According to Mr. happy the FFXIV ARR iteration of the Summoner broke from tradition and missed the mark entirely compared to other jobs. Traditionally the Summoner summoned massive demigods which did 30s of spike damage then leave and aftrerwards the Summoner went back to casting Black Magic spells. Heavensward brings Summoner back to its roots where they summon something with Dreadwrym Trance we deal heavy damage for 30s then go back to casting DoTs. I don't want a Final Fantasy XI Summoner what I do want is a Summoner that represents the Final Fantasy lore and tradition. Summoner should of been based around summomning the power of the primals in ARR and using their abilities rather than focusing on DoTs which traditionally what a Red Mage would do in an MMO. For a 5 min cool down Enkindle should summon the primal for its ultimate attack with a base potency of 1500 or keep it the same and reduce the cool down to 30s.

[Saggo]

Saggo, I'm sorry dude but you are falling on your face here.

[...]

1) Summoning epic beings/deitys to execute skills. - It does not work in this MMO. Nor would it, if they tried.

[...]

2) SMNs not focused around the pet instead of the job & FFXI. - All SMNs in FF as a whole, have been a Summoner second but largely maintained primary roles of either BLM / WHM mostly.

Thank you, for your concern about my well being.

1) I agree. More graphical clutter would be a bad thing, I mean [I]technically[\I] 14's SMN fails at that trend too, but yes, I think it was a necessary cut for summons to work in an MMO which is why I didn't bring it up. The other trends I brought up, which you didn't remark on, don't inherently need to be cut in order to transition to an MMO.

I believe that a lot of people that do ask for flashier summons want it because they think it will help bring back the underlying themes/trends, but that's just a feeling I get reading through each new thread. Some people do only want flashy graphics without any concern for the mechanics, and I do disagree with that. Personally, graphically, I wish that the Egis were better detailed, but that's about it.

2) Well, no, only 3 (4, 9, 10) games did that. In all the other games, it would be because you the player built the character that way. In 11, that was an artifact of poor balance, people's attitudes, and Squenix's inexperience at MMOs, not mechanically enforced. In recent years, as SE matured the game, they've managed to leave the "SMN's heal" stigma behind. Mechanically, yes, a lot of early FF games summons were similar to black magic, but lets be honest, melee strikes in those same games mechanically might as well have been non-elemental nukes too.

What I did, and what I hold to, was to show that while the 14 job in a vacuum is mechanically sound, it fails when critiqued against the series.

I await any sort of factual information to tell me how it is not similar to the majority of summoners in other games, keep XI out of it this time.

Absolutely!

In the games with a job systems and the summoner job (including the very first incarnation of it), 3, 5, and Tactics, that's all the job did. Not so in 14.

Only three games had pre-defined summoner characters with alternate abilities, 3, 9, and 10. Two of them it was still their primary source of damage without some trickery of the mechanics, not so in 14.

Of the games with the summon ability assignable, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 12, and Tactics, to various degrees of efficiency you can create a useful job combo that relied primarily on that ability. Not really so in 14.

In all the games with the summoning ability, 3 all through 13 3 through 10 and 12 through 13, it was used most often for at-will spike damage, not as a concurrent minor supplement. Not so in 14.

The most recent games, 10, 11, 12, and 13, actively developed the trend into interactive summons, acting persistently and also used for primarily at-will spike damage. Actually one of the few areas 14 continued, but very halfheartedly given their limited abilities and supplemental damage.

[SoloWingMetatron]

It's all well and good showing ones knowledge of FF lore. But that has no bearing on game play.....you want SMN to do this or SMN to do that? Great, but how can it be realistically implemented? At the end of the day all job's have to adhere to the overall game mechanics in place. Hence why WHM has spells that should belong to BLM (Stone, Aero) and why SMN needs to be able to have a decent DPS output without it coming from an Egi.

Think about it. In a game where footwork is key, the party is always moving during a fight (repositioning, dodging, and carrying out unique fight mechanics) A SMN which relied on it's Egi for all it's DPS would not only have to worry constantly about the positioning and dodging of themselves, but also that of the Egi. It would be like the Keeper of the Lake final boss, only for every bloody fight. Furthermore if the Egi were to perish then SMN would instantly lose all DPS, and in certain situations take whatever agro the Egi had onto themselves and then also perish.

Also let's not forget that weapons are key in FFXIV. With a SMN who had the Egi as it's only source of DPS abilities, then there would be no use for the grimoire they wield as the Egi would essentially be the SMN's weapon. Which although may sound like an interesting idea, it does not adhere to the game mechanics in place and therfore could not be realistically implemented.

My point is if you have an idea of how SMN could be changed one way or another, it's not enough to just have a random idea or quote past FF lore. You need to think how it would work with the mechanics of the game, as these mechanics can not be changed.