Melee in PvP

[aerialrave]

Regarding Frontlines specifically, I will agree that Ninja is much better than the other traditional melee DPS Monk and Dragoon. Note that it's possible to classify Paladins and Warriors under the "melee DPS" category as well, and actually I would say that they are better than Ninjas due to their disruption abilities and let's not forget the almighty Holmgang.

I also wouldn't say that this holds true for Wolves' Den. Monk and Dragoon have important abilities that can really turn the tide in Wolves' Den. In Frontlines, if you blow all your cooldowns and kill someone, even if it's a Healer, it doesn't matter much because there's the whole rest of the army there ready to stop what they're doing and take their revenge on you (easy since you're in melee range anyway). In Wolves' Den, if you've killed the Healer, there's like a 99% chance you've just won the match.

To answer your question specifically, I am playing mostly Monk in PvE, but I do not like to play it in Frontlines at all.

[Vandril]

Being Flexible > camping shit because you THINK your class ain't got a role in your party up in mid.
I saw Melee being decent up Mid, certainly you don't want 6 melees in a 72 slaughter, but you also don't want 6 healers or 6 tanks, do you? It's a TEAM WORK game, Camping is FAR from teamwork.

Camping is teamwork, actually, for the very reasons I outlined. It aids your team by serving as a distraction. If I'm a single DPS holding up a single other enemy DPS, then my net cost:benefit is 1:1. If I manage to even hold two dps alone, then my net cost:benefit is 1:2. A simple cost:benefit analysis shows that camping can be extremely beneficial, as it is a great allocation of resources from a cost:benefit perspective. If you take into account the overall cost:benefit:time ratios, you can even determine how many DPS you'll need to keep distracted over what period of time to make the duration of time you're spending camping their base worth it.

Also note that, if you're camping because you think your class is useless in mid, then you're doing it wrong. I don't think my class is useless in mid. I do very well in mid, often ending up as one of the top 5 melee DPS of any match in each of the categories of damage, kill count, and (least amount of) deaths. Me thinking I don't do well in mid has nothing to do with it. Camping is simply beneficial very often. It's like setting up an ambush to reinforcements - a mainstay of war tactics.

Of course there are times where camping is not beneficial, as well. At those times, you'll find me in mid.

As you implied, flexibility is key. And staying in mid regardless of anything is the very opposite of flexibility.

Beside that, you can't actually keep a smart healer (since it's the only target worth keeping "busy" as you said from mid) away from the battle field, you would hold me for a second for example, and I am certainly not the smartest healer I know. Keeping a healer away from mid? haha you must have really bad healers over there.

Whether it is because they are bad or otherwise, I have held many healers at their base for numerous minutes at a time. At the worst of times, all I can do is slow them down with stuns and roots. But even so, as healers are so precious in PvP, who knows how many enemy deaths I indirectly aided in by having slowed down a single healer for even so short a time.

Regardless of the reasons or duration, keeping healers away from mid is greatly beneficial.

You must be one of those players who don't change to healer/ranged/whatever even when your GC need it.

Damn straight. I will play what I like, and I will excel at it even if I find myself in a disadvantage. I will be where I am most useful to my team, but I will do so on my own standards. After all, I'm flexible, which even you admitted is of high importance to winning PvP.

You should try it sometime. It's fun.

[Xenosan]

Chasing enemy factions back to their jumpers after Allagan systems at the map corners and staying for an extra kill or two is one thing; but if you're jumper camping exclusively you're not performing to your fullest potential.

I'd rather have my Ninja friendlies dropping Dotons around the center node/drone in the Heliodrome, or on the panels adjacent to the other GCs. Doton and Shadowflare -- nevermind the dps potencies -- consider the human-factor, these create obstacles that dissuade players from trying to push onto your GC. That's just one example of utility I don't see enough from nin.

I'm not trying to convince yall to do otherwise since it's your preference, but camping can't be sold as some "tactical" (/airquotes emote) strategy or secret to success. Doing what you enjoy is one thing, but matches are won and loss up top. This crap was doubly irritating when Ninja was first released and the WoW-Rogue inspired lolnins started stalking enemy flags with /hide. Cool story bro but unless they leave or you try to make something happen, you're no different than an AFK bot.

Jumper camping is bush-league. People do it because they can't handle the heat up top, or just don't care enough about getting the win. whew

[Nalien]

Camping is teamwork, actually, for the very reasons I outlined. It aids your team by serving as a distraction.

While this is true, it's also true that I don't need to stay at their OP to be doing this. I once had nearly an entire party running around looking for me, that was beautiful, but they were doing so with me hidden, I went up to mid and let them continue running around spamming Miasma trying to find me. What did I do when I was at mid on their side? Instantly locate someone with Battle High/Fever, Trick Attack > Stun > Limit Break and killed them instantly. Follow that up with a Ill Wind (which I swear I never see any other Ninjas using...) and Sprint and I got out safely. One third of their team was looking for me at their OP, another third was Silenced and could do nothing, and I'd just killed someone with Battle Fever. I may have been able to farm kills better had I stayed at their OP, but I think going to mid contributed far more to my team than anything else.

[Zensho]

Monk: need to much time for all buffs and have to move to the side/behind.
Dragen: have his 3 jump's, with good gear and fullbuffed, take it 60%+ of my life.
Ninja have no rules, only to hold you in his range and can use his buffs instan.
Warri: with good gear and buffed can a warri hit you with 1,2k dmg, need a bit longer time but have ~7k life.

Paladin: delete this shit.

Delete yer face!

[Vandril]

While this is true, it's also true that I don't need to stay at their OP to be doing this. I once had nearly an entire party running around looking for me, that was beautiful, but they were doing so with me hidden, I went up to mid and let them continue running around spamming Miasma trying to find me. What did I do when I was at mid on their side? Instantly locate someone with Battle High/Fever, Trick Attack > Stun > Limit Break and killed them instantly. Follow that up with a Ill Wind (which I swear I never see any other Ninjas using...) and Sprint and I got out safely. One third of their team was looking for me at their OP, another third was Silenced and could do nothing, and I'd just killed someone with Battle Fever. I may have been able to farm kills better had I stayed at their OP, but I think going to mid contributed far more to my team than anything else.

Now that's the kind of strategy I'm talking about.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees the point in doing such things. It's hilarious watching people run around like chickens without heads while spamming AoEs to find me, knowing they'll never find me because I've already left for where I'll be more useful atm.

I'm not trying to convince yall to do otherwise since it's your preference, but camping can't be sold as some "tactical" (/airquotes emote) strategy or secret to success. Doing what you enjoy is one thing, but matches are won and loss up top. This crap was doubly irritating when Ninja was first released and the WoW-Rogue inspired lolnins started stalking enemy flags with /hide. Cool story bro but unless they leave or you try to make something happen, you're no different than an AFK bot.

Jumper camping is bush-league. People do it because they can't handle the heat up top, or just don't care enough about getting the win. whew

Now, see, this is just wrong. A tactical play is exactly what camping is - when done right. Sure, games are won and lost in mid. And yes, many campers are people who can't "handle the heat" in mid. But no, that does not mean camping is not extremely useful and it does not mean all campers are doing it for that reason. Cutting off reinforcements with a smaller force to buy time is a crucial strategy in nearly every war/wargame in existence. You can claim that it's not legitimate strategy, but it is.

Of course, there are certainly other things a camper could be doing rather than camping. But the difference in awareness of a PvPer and a good PvPer is the difference in knowing to do only one thing and knowing how to do what you need to do when you need to do it. There are times when camping is not beneficial. There are also times when it is extremely beneficial.

[Faltrask]

The fact is that you're holding NAB players there, and if you die with high/fever it's a disaster for your GC.
Also you letting your party fight without you up there in mid.

There is absolutely NO way any camper can kill me I simply skip them even 2/3 at a time when it happens, but I understand there are a lot of unexperienced players, that's what you aim for.

Beside I still don't know what's so funny about attacking someone hoping he is an unaware/unexperienced player.

[Vandril]

The fact is that you're holding NAB players there, and if you die with high/fever it's a disaster for your GC.
Also you letting your party fight without you up there in mid.

There is absolutely NO way any camper can kill me I simply skip them even 2/3 at a time when it happens, but I understand there are a lot of unexperienced players, that's what you aim for.

Beside I still don't know what's so funny about attacking someone hoping he is an unaware/unexperienced player.

If I only manage to hold "NAB players", then a good 90% of the enemies I see in Frontlines are that type of player. The only time my enemies escape my camping is when they get too many reinforcements or are a healer. And even then, I can generally keep them occupied and out of mid for at least 2 full minutes. Considering the short time limit slaughter has, 2 minutes is a long time.

But this isn't really about me. I'm talking the merits of camping, not how good or bad I am at it.

Camping is not a suicide run. There is no reason campers have to die at all. Not with the easy escape mechanism sitting right near your camping spot, and especially not as a Ninja.

You should never die while holding the kill buffs while camping. If you have a kill buff, camping becomes a disadvantaged strategy, and you must retreat to middle where the buff can be put to better use. That's how you're supposed to do it. That's an example of being adaptable, as I mentioned previously.

I reiterate: the point of camping is to distract. It's a matter of logistics. And a simple cost:benefit analysis proves that it can be, very often, extremely beneficial to your team. That is a fact.

[morerancor]

Hide is a little overpowered. Once you get battle high your mark on the map should not go away just because you go into hide.

[Vandril]

Hide is a little overpowered. Once you get battle high your mark on the map should not go away just because you go into hide.

Woah, wait a second. That actually happens? <.<

I...honestly never knew this. I just thought people never thought to look at their minimap. >.>

And the worst part of this post? I'm not even kidding. -_-'

Anyway, to be as completely unbiased as it's possible to be as a Ninja talking about whether or not something regarding Ninja is overpowered, I have to admit that I don't feel it's that big a deal. It's exceptionally unlikely that a NIN will be able to use Hide again once they enter their first combat in a Slaughter (unless they die). To kill enough people to gain the buff and then re-enter hide... That Ninja would need to avoid combat completely for minutes just to enter Hide. You can't use Hide in combat, and combat in PvP takes forever to drop if even a single target that either hit the Ninja or got hit by the Ninja is not dead. For those minutes, they can do nothing if they wish to try to use Hide.

Actually, I'm not exactly sure what the PvP combat-drop requirements are. I've not yet been able to tell whether it's distance between previously hit/"hit by" targets or if it's just time passed since last combat action taken. Either way, though, the fact remains that Hide is difficult to use in Slaughter...

...unless you're camping. Then, it would be rather overpowered, huh? *ponders for a moment* Yet it would still be more beneficial for the team if any camping Ninja with a kill buff would go back to mid. People are more likely to pursue the Ninja through the jumpers without hesitation if the Ninja has these buffs, making the Ninja's escape plan more difficult to pull off. Once in mid, what I typed above about Hide being difficult to use due to combat drop mechanics in PvP would again be true.

Still, I can understand the concern that being able to Hide during the buff to remove the minimap marker might be a little overpowered in regards to camping.