I feel like I've won a battle

[Sen_Terrechant]

lol

Yes, i edited a mention that i really don't care all that much for Summoner, almost solely based on how unintuitive its control mechanics are. What you're suggesting makes the most sense of senseness, but it's rarely what I read when i peek into these topics.

unintuitive (comparative more unintuitive, superlative most unintuitive)

Not intuitive, not easily graspable by intuition
In particular, counterintuitive; counter to what one's intuition expects.

I think you used the wrong word. Its pretty straight foreward what they do, and how to do it. I think the word you were looking for was UNRESPONSIVE (atleast in regards to pets)

[CarmenSandiego]

You've won the battle now the Summoner population will be completely dead in 3.0 and they will main Black Mages since they are clearly better than Summoner in every way.

I really don't understand this BLM>SMN mindset. I have never seen a single fight where a BLM completely outstrips a SMN, not even T4 where it's basically all AoE. What I do see is A LOT of Summoners who don't use their AoE abilities well, but let's put them aside and talk about the class itself:

We absolutely wreck in all high mobility fights, anything with multiple targets, and our ability to keep 99% DPS output while moving provided our dots are on makes us the superior class for jobs like kiting and handling all mechanics. This will only be more true in Heavensward if Wanderer's Minuet will affect Bards that much (which it sounds like it will). The only fight where a great BLM vs a great SMN would always win is T8 normal, and not even by that much. Every other raid encounter is basically free game. Sure we have a ramp up time of about 10 seconds which makes us pretty rubbish at burst unlike a BLM, but are there really that many occasions where it matters? We fulfil a different role, damage dealer and mechanic support. We can do both equally well simultaneously which is arguably more valuable towards working with your team than being forced to do one or the other. Not only that, but the damage we do deal is immense when played right; a raid isn't sacrificing DPS by picking up a SMN, they're gaining flexibility. If you can't keep up it's because you're not playing the class optimally, and that's your fault because you haven't put the time/effort in, not Square Enix's. You're complaining about the classes' high skill cap, not the class itself if you actually believe they're underpowered. I personally love the class, it's been my main since 2.0 was released. I understand a lot of people don't and you're entitled to your opinion, but know that many of us welcome the new abilities with open arms because they will only make it even more fun.

[Sunako]

I have never seen a single fight where a BLM completely outstrips a SMN, not even T4 where it's basically all AoE.

I have never seen any smn reach even 600 dps in t10 without echo but blm can reach 700+

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0AyFjeIcaM

[Dextro]

I really don't understand this BLM>SMN mindset. I have never seen a single fight where a BLM completely outstrips a SMN.

Oh boy... you're about to add like 5 pages onto this thread now >_>

[CarmenSandiego]

I have never seen any smn reach even 600 dps in t10 without echo but blm can reach 700+

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0AyFjeIcaM

This video is a speed run, the Adds are stacked which allow the BLM to AoE. Show me a proper comparison with a video where it's a SMN with the same strategy conditions if you want to argue that point.

[pandabearcat]

Pure potency wise,

DoTs + sflare + miasma II + blizz II + occasional Egi cleave is better than Fire II.

Obviously there are setup issues, but with blizz III downtime its about equal in that regard.

The problem lies in that SMN can't aoe for more than 20 seconds without being completely OOM, because it doesn't have the umbral to support blizz II spam, nor can it put up dots without destroying mana.

Also since bane is 4 targets only (why...?) during mass AoE smn just loses.

The main things are

1. Bane really needs to not have aoe cap.
2. Need an actual AoE pet (whose autoattacks are AoE/cleave).
3. Need a class based AoE that doesn't suck.

I am discounting flare atm because you could also Enkindle for similar damage, obviously though only in one big burst.

[Akiza]

Pure potency wise,

DoTs + sflare + miasma II + blizz II + occasional Egi cleave is better than Fire II.

Obviously there are setup issues, but with blizz III downtime its about equal in that regard.

The problem lies in that SMN can't aoe for more than 20 seconds without being completely OOM, because it doesn't have the umbral to support blizz II spam, nor can it put up dots without destroying mana.

Also since bane is 4 targets only (why...?) during mass AoE smn just loses.

The main things are

1. Bane really needs to not have aoe cap.
2. Need an actual AoE pet (whose autoattacks are AoE/cleave).
3. Need a class based AoE that doesn't suck.

I am discounting flare atm because you could also Enkindle for similar damage, obviously though only in one big burst.

Discounting Flare because Summoners can Enkindle lmfao. Flare isn't on a 300s cool down in fact it doesn't have a cool down at all and it has a higher base potency than Enkindle. Flare can be worked into the rotation every minute if used propery becuase of the astral fire and umbra ice mecahnic also if Black Mages really wanted to they can Flare every 30s with Fire III into Flare rotation. Summoner can only use Enkindle once per fight since its on an insanley long cool down for the damge it does. If Enkindle' cool down was 30s or its potency was 2500 then it can be compared to Flare.

[Skeith-Adeline]

There is not a single fight in Final Coil (discounting purposeless bloating) in which you'll find a similarly skilled BLM fighting to match the SMN. Not saying SMNs can't be great by the way, I'm just saying that Black Mages currently have a greater DPS ceiling than SMNers. Besides, find me some videos of SMNs doing 550+ on T10 and 11 pre-nerf.

lol to say that SMN AoE is comparable with BLM AoE is sacrilegious. Why would you discount Flare? That makes absolutely 0 sense. Like Akiza said, Flare isn't on a cooldown and is an integral part of our AoE and is what makes us AoE kings lol

Fire 3 > Raging > Fire 2 > Fire 2 > Fire 2 > flare > convert > flare > swiftcast > mega-ether > flare
3 flares in 15-20 seconds?
Tranpose > Fire 3 > Fire 2 > fire 2 > Flare
Another flare every what, 15-20 seconds?

[ShinryuReishiki]

I really don't understand this BLM>SMN mindset. I have never seen a single fight where a BLM completely outstrips a SMN, not even T4 where it's basically all AoE.

It comes from early Final Coil progression. Before the cost reduction to Ruin, there was a significant gap between the two simply due to SMN having to play very conservatively in order not to run out of MP before a fight was even halfway done. Now the gap is much, much smaller, but still present.

Besides, find me some videos of SMNs doing 550+ on T10 and 11 pre-nerf.

http://www.twitch.tv/rubykid15/profile

[pandabearcat]

super QQ

I discounted flare because you do not flare too often outside of a bursty type of scenario, and Enkindle with pet buffs up is probably the strongest burst attack in the game. Similarly, I also discounted pet AoE, as the pets all have a low CD aoe they can use as well.

Similarly, you won't really be AoEing for longer than 30 seconds, if you do SMN is already down because of its mana. This is also a scenario that doesn't come up often.

You cannot also just look at Flare's potency. Flare is awkward to use without cooldowns, and it introduces downtime into their rotation. SMN's AoE is consistent and has no real downtime, so it is steady damage. Furthermore, it takes the place of a Fire II.

Notably, SMN is far better at cleaving fights of low AoE numbers, 2-4 targets where it can efficiently AoE while still doing 90% of single target dps to primary burn target.