Let us report retainers who sell items from bots

[Stormrider]

So i have seen a few numbers suggested. If I type nothing and farm shards like crazy with out using potions. I can get 1000 an hour. If shards climb to 100 gil per shard I will farm between pvp ques.

Now this doesn't take into account multiple people working together. But I feel you can say 1kshards/hour is a good guestimate.

[KisaiTenshi]

The problem is people see Player A going to the same route across three different trees and goes "OMG ITS A BOT! LIGHT IT ON FIRE!!!!!" Seriously I cannot count on my hands how many people have stopped to "observe" me while I'm gathering.

Yes we go to the same three nodes over and over again, not because we are bots but because those nodes give benefits like HQ increase, or one additional gathering attempt, or double yields naturally. The problem is that players who have a lazier mindset or lack the fortitude to sit there and gather for an hour or so automatically assume those other people are BOTS, when its not the case. That being said I'm not saying that bots don't exist in the game, there are bots, however IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU TO KNOW ITS A BOT UNLESS YOU ARE USING ILLEGAL 3RD PARTY PROGRAMS YOURSELF TO MONITOR THEM.

Whoa, hold the phone. Bots are pretty obvious to people who routinely see bots. The average person who wanders by and sees someone gathering from the same three nodes repeatedly, doesn't know that person is a bot the FIRST TIME they see them, but they do know they are botting when they come by 16 hours later and see them STILL gathering/mining in the same place in the same pattern.

This experience comes from watching bots in three other games.

IS IT A BOT OR IS IT HUMAN?
1) Check their gear. Bots will have HQ gear all from the same person, or all NPC/Quest NQ gear.
2) Is it gathering/mining/fishing? check the accessory slots. A real player will have a variety of gear and sources or all gear they made themselves. Bots, especially when you see a group of bots moving in the same pattern will likely have just the minimum gear necessary to mine that node.
3) Bots will not have minions summoned.... the quickest clue that someone is NOT botting is that they will have an untradeable minion summoned for no reason.
4) Search them on the lodestone and see what other jobs they have. A Bot will likely not have more than one or two classes leveled, and often only the minimum required to start that DoL class or otherwise will have only the requirements for BLM or WHM completed if they are hunting. If their lodestone is all private, that is almost certainly a bot. Someone who isn't a bot will at least have the achievement section public, because that makes it obvious to anyone searching they have been doing something other than standing there gathering for a solid week.
5) Watch the pattern, are they "turning on a dime" or are they turning in an arc? Bots "turn on a dime" eg they walk/run in straight lines to each node. Players don't generally walk in straight lines, they turn around first or turn in an arc.
6) They get stuck or die and then just stay there for hours.
7) You never see them immediately after a patch, but they run non-stop until the next patch.
8) FFXIV-specific: Bots "jump" repeatedly when they are blocked. This is most common of hunting bots/spirit-bonding bots. There are three bot sets I've seen
- Spirit-bonding bots at the Gelmorra Ruins, Uruths Fount (they all stand still until the wisp type mobs appear and then attack from a static location)
- Spirit-bonding bots at Castrum Occidens (spotted mainly during the book quests of kill "X many Y mobs" for the relic weapon)
- Spirit-bonding bots around Mor Dhona (identifiable because they will appear to be griefing you through kill-stealing, but it's always the same one or two players. It's a huge pain when you need to complete a F.A.T.E and they keep pulling aggro away from you.)

With the exception of the last one, I'm fairly certain they are bots due to the amount of time spent in those locations on several different days and times. The last one could be a player, but the movement suggests otherwise. So it's probably better to report that one for griefing than botting.

[OMEGA_HACK]

Whoa, hold the phone. Bots are pretty obvious to people who routinely see bots. The average person who wanders by and sees someone gathering from the same three nodes repeatedly, doesn't know that person is a bot the FIRST TIME they see them, but they do know they are botting when they come by 16 hours later and see them STILL gathering/mining in the same place in the same pattern.

This experience comes from watching bots in three other games.

IS IT A BOT OR IS IT HUMAN?
1) Check their gear. Bots will have HQ gear all from the same person, or all NPC/Quest NQ gear.
2) Is it gathering/mining/fishing? check the accessory slots. A real player will have a variety of gear and sources or all gear they made themselves. Bots, especially when you see a group of bots moving in the same pattern will likely have just the minimum gear necessary to mine that node.
3) Bots will not have minions summoned.... the quickest clue that someone is NOT botting is that they will have an untradeable minion summoned for no reason.
4) Search them on the lodestone and see what other jobs they have. A Bot will likely not have more than one or two classes leveled, and often only the minimum required to start that DoL class or otherwise will have only the requirements for BLM or WHM completed if they are hunting. If their lodestone is all private, that is almost certainly a bot. Someone who isn't a bot will at least have the achievement section public, because that makes it obvious to anyone searching they have been doing something other than standing there gathering for a solid week.
5) Watch the pattern, are they "turning on a dime" or are they turning in an arc? Bots "turn on a dime" eg they walk/run in straight lines to each node. Players don't generally walk in straight lines, they turn around first or turn in an arc.
6) They get stuck or die and then just stay there for hours.
7) You never see them immediately after a patch, but they run non-stop until the next patch.
8) FFXIV-specific: Bots "jump" repeatedly when they are blocked. This is most common of hunting bots/spirit-bonding bots. There are three bot sets I've seen
- Spirit-bonding bots at the Gelmorra Ruins, Uruths Fount (they all stand still until the wisp type mobs appear and then attack from a static location)
- Spirit-bonding bots at Castrum Occidens (spotted mainly during the book quests of kill "X many Y mobs" for the relic weapon)
- Spirit-bonding bots around Mor Dhona (identifiable because they will appear to be griefing you through kill-stealing, but it's always the same one or two players. It's a huge pain when you need to complete a F.A.T.E and they keep pulling aggro away from you.)

With the exception of the last one, I'm fairly certain they are bots due to the amount of time spent in those locations on several different days and times. The last one could be a player, but the movement suggests otherwise. So it's probably better to report that one for griefing than botting.

WHAT?! I jump when I am stuck not because im a bot but because I'm stubborn, again you have NO PROOF that those are bots. Not to mention you say I see person at node at 3PM I come back 16hours later and find same person at same node so he must be a bot!!!!!!!!!!!one!!!1!!! How do you know that person didn't log off, go to sleep for 8 hours, go to work/class for 8 hours and then log back in and start to farm again?! YOU DON'T UNLESS YOU ARE CHEATING YOURSELF TO MONITOR OTHER PLAYERS EXACT WHEREABOUTS AT ANY TIME.

All my gear is HQ from the same person because guess what...MY FREAKIN' FC MATE CAN MAKE IT AND I GATHER IT.

Minions being summoned as a call to not being a bot? Are you kidding me? You have to be kidding me. Seriously where is Ashton Kutcher because I must be getting punk'd.

Yes most RMT only have WHM and/or BLM leveled up, much like in FFXI. So that would be a decent tell sign but I wouldn't name it RMT just because.

Just because someone in dead for a while doesn't mean they are a bot. There could be a number of things that happened in that person REAL LIFE that took precedent over the game. Ie: child birth, dog sick, family emergency, diarrhea, uncontrollable vomiting, or all of the above and more.

While you have listed a couple tell signs for illicit activity that is not the end all be all. And having the power to report on a whim or worse--which honestly is what people are asking for without asking for--should NEVER EVER be in the hands of the players. period. I don't trust the paranoia that exists on these forums enough to entrust anyone with that kind of responsibility. I mean hell people believe SE is in bed with RMT...case and point of paranoia to the max.

NO THANKS.


Also I should note, that if you are sleuthing certain players, and watching their every move be careful, because that can be a taken as a form of harassment. In fact if I saw you stalking my character I would report you for that, so be glad if that is indeed what you are doing, that we are not on the same server.

Edit:

Whoa, hold the phone. Bots are pretty obvious to people who routinely see bots.

I reread your post and this sentence made me retch the second time. I really hope you understand that you validate my point of paranoid players with this sentence. "bots are pretty obvious to people who routinely see bots." So you know they are a bot because you routinely see bots? So you know they are a bot in the first place how? Because the things you listed below? Hardly proof to say they are a bot without a shadow of a doubt. That leaves me to believe you know bots because you routinely see them because you, yourself, are using bots, so you'd know how they work due to your own experience using them. That is the ONLY way I can see you knowing without a doubt that bots are bots; because I see a player harvesting stuff and I say "Oh look another gatherer. /wave" why? because I'm not paranoid.

[braneri1]

The martyr complex sure is strong in this thread.

[Ceodore]

.snip.

You are correct. However, this thread has become extremely derailed from the original post. We are not talking about being able to report gatherers or people out in the fields, this thread was originally about reporting retainers. Try to focus your arguments on why this system is flawed and ultimately a waste of resources instead of why the current system in game could generate bias and a higher percentage of false reports among players. We should probably get back onto that subject, because the ability to report players themselves is already in the game, and is a fair tool. No, it's not 100% accurate, but it's a fair tool.

Now, while I understand (as some people think I don't understand) that reporting a retainer doesn't mean that that retainer's player is automatically banned, what my point is (which I didn't state clearly enough before, and that's my fault) is that this kind of feature [The ability to report shady retainers] is ultimately lacking in over all quality. What I mean by this is that the general population of the game may report a retainer, but that's not to say that that retainer is actually the retainer of a bot. This means that, like all reports, this report has to be investigated, which requires man hours. Those man hours are ultimately far less productive when every report of a shady retainer has to be dealt with when compared to someone reporting what they think might be the farming bot out in the field. My example of a drug trafficking ring or a human trafficking ring is perfect because it displays the ease with which tracking a product from source to consumer when compared to from consumer to source then to the rest of the consumers. In this case, the source is the bot character in the field, farming items. Then those items can possibly change hands, move around, but the items themselves can be followed and tracked much easier when they have been tagged at the source level instead of trying to trace back their origins from the consumer level. This is essentially a network that looks much like a tree. The trunk is the bot character who is out in the field farming, and the branches are all the other characters that that bot can likely send those items to. Then the leaves are the branches' retainers, who put those items up for sale. Starting from the trunk (source) and following the trade of items to all the accounts that the items are likely being traded to is much easier than starting with one of those accounts, then tracing back to the source, then having to trace from the source back to all those accounts.

This is why this system is ultimately far less efficient at catching bots. You're trying to start from the wrong side, and it takes more time and effort to what might or might not amount to the same or even less productive work. Further, since every report has to be investigated, and the likely bias, abuse, and lack of evidence involved with this system, the number of false reports will be far higher than the number of false reports that are made out in the fields, and this will result in a much higher waste in man hours.

This system is inefficient, unreliable, and ultimately a waste of time and money for less productive outcomes. Go back to the drawing board and think again.

[Freyar]

I fully expect groups of people rallying to take off "competition" on the boards. No thanks.

[OMEGA_HACK]

Ceodore I believe you and I might be on the same page about reporting retainers being a bad move for SE to implement. But then I believe you are saying would be good to give more ability to the player to report gather bots? I mean don't the players already have a means to that? You can call GM and report the suspicious activity. So if that is said then what else could the players have? The ability to temp ban a player if enough reports are put in? This was brought up in another thread about RMT tells and friend requests. The problem with something like that is that it becomes a harassment liability when a group of FC mates who don't like another player for whatever reason decide to mass report that player giving them a temp-ban. Now that player is locked in gaol and cannot play even though he may or may not be guilty.

I mean you don't come out and directly say that but ultimately that is where the conversation would go. And its a place I personally don't want to be in. Not because I'm doing something illegal (because I certainly am not) but because I don't trust the majority judgment of players on this game based on what I've read on this thread and others to boot.

[Ceodore]

I fully expect groups of people rallying to take off "competition" on the boards. No thanks.

Well, the fact is, these reports have to be verified. Believe me, SE does not want the scandal of banning an account based on hearsay of "competition". The game would plummet, especially with the bad PR. However, you bring to point an underlying flaw with this system which will make it ultimately less productive. Bias and competition in the markets will lead to massive false report claims.

But then I believe you are saying would be good to give more ability to the player to report gather bots?

No no, what I am ultimately saying is that the system already in place for reporting gatherers is good. The system being purposed in this thread is flawed, less productive, and a larger waste of resources. And that the system for reporting players should be made more stream lined. For instance, the system for kicking players from a dungeon is quite simple and easy to use. The system for reporting players in the field should be just the same, simple and easy to use. That doesn't mean players should have the power to ban, but it should mean that the ability to file a report of botting should be made just as simple.

Example: Right Click Player -> Report Player -> Options include harassment, vulgar language, RMT selling, Bot Program, etc.

This doesn't mean the target player is banned. It just means that SE can receive a notification to investigate something that might be a problem.

[OMEGA_HACK]

Well, the fact is...

...the ability to file a report of botting should be made just as simple.

So you don't think its easy to report possible ToS breaking activities? I mean its as simple as:

1) Open menu
2) Click Support & Information
3) Click "Contact Us"
4) Choose best option suited to the problem
5) Write report and submit

If they make it just

1) Right click player or player name in chat box
2) Click "Report player" and done

Then they open the option to easy trolling, as well as bots to be able to mass report legit players to clog up the system. I'd love it if it were that easy but I don't think it is possible without serious complications.

[Ceodore]

So you don't think its easy to report possible ToS breaking activities? I mean its as simple as:

1) Open menu
2) Click Support & Information
3) Click "Contact Us"
4) Choose best option suited to the problem
5) Write report and submit

If they make it just

1) Right click player or player name in chat box
2) Click "Report player" and done

Then they open the option to easy trolling, as well as bots to be able to mass report legit players to clog up the system. I'd love it if it were that easy but I don't think it is possible without serious complications.

Well anything can be trolled and clogged. That's just the flaw of any system, including the one currently available. That's the issue with any system such as this. But seeing 50 reports come from the same person for the same exact thing on the same exact target as opposed to 50 reports coming from 50 different people that say one thing on 6 or 7 targets are two different things. For obvious reasons, those 50 reports coming from the same person are likely because that person is using a bot program to clog the system. They essentially hang themselves in this way. And those 50 reports from 50 different people on several different targets means SE has more evidence to begin an investigation, and they can essentially ignore those 50 reports from one person being filed about one person.