Level Sync QoL: Keep Abilities Intact

[Eidolon]

You know, I see a lot of people AGAINST the idea of keeping your skills in level synched content because of their concern for the newer players. A lot of people are blasting veterans saying they just want to "Steamroll over new players" and how "unfair" it would be. Well, in my opinion, it's not about that.

1) Right now, some of us don't run low-level content because it's boring and we can't do it with friends without directly que'ing into the instance. So right now, I'm not doing low level roulette because the tomes are a joke and the content is jsut SO BORING because of the lack of buttons to press. Sorry, but 3 button gameplay is NOT fun to me.
2) Having access to our full kits, you're worried that we'll rip threat off the tank and then blast them for being bad. Here's the thing, though... We already rip hate off the tanks. I have no problem on DRG or BLM if I ST and the tank is newer ripping threat off the tank. It's very easy to do pre-30/40 with newer tanks. This is a responsibility of the DPS to not let this happen.
3) Having access to our full kits, you're neglecting we get ways to manage our threat. Dragoons recieve elusive jump. Black Mage and Summoner cross-class Quelling Strikes. Monk has naturally low potency strikes to avoid generating large threat and relies on pumping out damage fast to make up for it. Not having access to these skills actually reduces our abilities to reduce threat. Having access to all our CD's also hurts because we can't negate damage as much - stressing the healer more.
4) What about tanks that want to do low level? Imagine a paladin with Shield / Sword oath in level 15 dungouns. Their threat will be rediculous. DPS could really go all-out if they wanted to.
5) Faster runs dont' necessarily have to be a bad thing. I don't get why people think that it's only speed runners that want faster runs. Faster run = more mobs killed per hour for low-level players = faster leveling experience.

These are just some of my opinions on the matter. There will always exist counters to each - such as people just being ****y human beings in the first place. But I'm going to be honest with you... People will be ****y human beings regardless if they get skills or not. Those people are already being horrid people.

[Kathryn]

Snip..

You are forgetting that low level dungeons ARE for low levels hence the skill blockout and my answer's to your questions are:

1) Low level dungeon roulette's incentive is for someone who is looking to earn a few more tomes and help out low levels in the process hell even being in a low level party that alot of people have had to wait around for is sometimes greatly appreciated.

2) A majority of DPS I have met couldnt give 2 damneds about their threat generation and didnt even know the white bars on the party bar was even threat orientated til pointed out.

3) Again it comes down to they want to get through fast a majority of mages don't even use Quelling Strikes.

4) So whats stopping you kicking the newbie tank who doesn't have access to Shield Oath yet so you can get your buddy in to blast through the dungeon?

5) I disagree going faster and trying to do things faster than the mechanics with strangers will never be a thing you can accomplish with strangers but only a premade party.

[Eidolon]

You are forgetting that low level dungeons ARE for low levels hence the skill blockout and my answer's to your questions are:

Low level dungeon roulette's incentive is for someone who is looking to earn a few more tomes and help out low levels in the process hell even being in a low level party that alot of people have had to wait around for is sometimes greatly appreciated.

The low level roulette is for whatever you make it for. As much of a cop-out answer as that is, that's exactly what it is.
-> I used it early on to help me make gil back when I was poor.
-> I used it to get Tomes back when I needed tomes (Before being constantly content-capped)
-> I used it to get EXP on jobs back when I was leveling.
No, it's not designed purely for the "Low level players", otherwise you wouldnt' see rewards on it for high level players. It is designed for everyone, not just one specific class of player.

2) A majority of DPS I have met couldnt give 2 damneds about their threat generation and didnt even know the white bars on the party bar was even threat orientated til pointed out.

And those same DPS will not hold back for any tank. And those same DPS will pull threat, regardless of the amount of skills they have. That is my point regarding this - limiting our bars only serves to inconvenience us and makes many of us who WOULD go help people out... not bother. Like myself. Because I dont' enjoy 3 button gameplay.

3) Again it comes down to they want to get through fast a majority of mages don't even use Quelling Strikes.

Most BLM's I meet learn fast that they need Quelling Strikes due ot the high initial burst phase of Astral Fire. I've seen even the most stubborn of BLM's finally concede that having a threat reduction abiility so they don't pull threat is far more beneficial than ignoring it. So this is kinda YMMV sort of deal - we both have different experiences iwht DPS, it's impossible to say which is the majority.

4) So whats stopping you kicking the newbie tank who doesn't have access to Shield Oath yet so you can get your buddy in to blast through the dungeon?

What's stopping me from doing that right now? Absolutely nothing. The only thing "Stopping" me is that I'm a decent human being. Horrid people will be horrid. Matter of fact, I've actually been kicked from low level "Because we were trying to get my friend in." after waiting 20 minutes in que... NOTHING will change people wanting to get their friend in.

5) I disagree going faster and trying to do things faster than the mechanics with strangers will never be a thing you can accomplish with strangers but only a premade party.

We'll have to agree to disagree. There are plenty of PUG's and Stranger's I meet that can do things just fine. For example, Steps of Faith, one of people's favorite comparisons, I did easily with plenty of PUG's in duty finder on day one as well as 5 days before the Nerf patch (I love doing me some trial roulette, even if I considered stopping doing it because it got to be annoying) by communication.

Matter of fact, when I used to take my scholar into low level roulette, if I got Halatali, I would say "Hey everyone, focus on the boss. I can take care of adds by myself."

Communication is a hell of a thing.

[Quesse]

The low level roulette is for whatever you make it for.
No, it's not designed purely for the "Low level players", otherwise you wouldnt' see rewards on it for high level players. It is designed for everyone, not just one specific class of player.

The person you are responding to said low level dungeons are for low levels. Not roulette. And they are, what other dungeons would low levels be doing? Now roulette, as designed, was indeed to provide an incentive for higher level people to fill in the Duty Finder as the new population started dwindling. I think its a great idea. Unfortunately there are people that solely treat it as a way to "Get Stuff". That's too bad.

[Eidolon]

The person you are responding to said low level dungeons are for low levels. Not roulette. And they are, what other dungeons would low levels be doing? Now roulette, as designed, was indeed to provide an incentive for higher level people to fill in the Duty Finder as the new population started dwindling. I think its a great idea. Unfortunately there are people that solely treat it as a way to "Get Stuff". That's too bad.

Fair point I suppose. But then again, use is in the eye of the beholder. Back in the day of 2.0, we didn't run dungouns for EXP - FATE's were far better. Who, then, were low levels for?


Dungouns are still for everyone. They will never be "Just for low levels!" People can want vanity from them. People can want Triple Triad cards from them (Cutter's Cry), people might want to spirit bond lower level armor to be able to break it down into Materia. Hell, people might just enjoy running them (I've had a few people mention that they enjoy dungoun X of Y. Mind you they won't go out and do them all the time, but there are some that genuinly enjoy them before the Soul-crushing grind breaks them.)

For all intents and purposes, there is only one thing that Low Level dungouns were designed for: Story progression. You clear it once, then it is never required after that. That is it's sole purpose and in that regard you might win a "That's for low levels."

[kyuven]

1) Right now, some of us don't run low-level content because it's boring and we can't do it with friends without directly que'ing into the instance. So right now, I'm not doing low level roulette because the tomes are a joke and the content is jsut SO BORING because of the lack of buttons to press. Sorry, but 3 button gameplay is NOT fun to me.

Then it's not for you. I find killing bees outside Ul'Dah boring, but new players still do it and it's fun at the time as they figure out how their skills work.

2) Having access to our full kits, you're worried that we'll rip threat off the tank and then blast them for being bad. Here's the thing, though... We already rip hate off the tanks. I have no problem on DRG or BLM if I ST and the tank is newer ripping threat off the tank. It's very easy to do pre-30/40 with newer tanks. This is a responsibility of the DPS to not let this happen.

Oh yeah it is. But when a SINGLE rotation can do it without even trying? Or better yet, when a BLM can use their "infinite combo" and keep hate better than any lowbie tank? Why bother having a tank when the BLM is doing better damage, keeping better aggro, and taking only slightly more damage? Low level dungeons ARE a "joke" because they're meant for low levels.

3) Having access to our full kits, you're neglecting we get ways to manage our threat. Dragoons recieve elusive jump. Black Mage and Summoner cross-class Quelling Strikes. Monk has naturally low potency strikes to avoid generating large threat and relies on pumping out damage fast to make up for it. Not having access to these skills actually reduces our abilities to reduce threat. Having access to all our CD's also hurts because we can't negate damage as much - stressing the healer more.

What about those who DON'T have those skills? I can't believe I have to say this, I really can't, but high level play is NOT low level play. Also, there's a certain point when even quelling strikes can't help you. I am not joking when I say i've peeled aggro off a tank while quelling strikes is up with a single BLM combo. And this was a tank WITH shield oath/defiance on. How do you think that will go down in low level dungeons with tanks NOT having those abilities yet?

4) What about tanks that want to do low level? Imagine a paladin with Shield / Sword oath in level 15 dungouns. Their threat will be rediculous. DPS could really go all-out if they wanted to.

Sure that'd be "great" but you're forgetting the reverse: What about the statistically more likely scenario when you DON'T have a 50 tank or healer? A low level tank is not designed to be able to hold aggro off a full-rotation BLM, BRD or MNK. They simply do not have the tools yet.

5) Faster runs dont' necessarily have to be a bad thing. I don't get why people think that it's only speed runners that want faster runs. Faster run = more mobs killed per hour for low-level players = faster leveling experience.

Faster runs don't necessarily mean BETTER runs. Running a dungeon should be a learning experience for people within the level bracket. What you're suggesting is basically carrying new players through dungeons the way people are carried through the new primals by light farms. You're excising an important part of the learning experience for the sake of speed.

These are just some of my opinions on the matter. There will always exist counters to each - such as people just being ****y human beings in the first place. But I'm going to be honest with you... People will be ****y human beings regardless if they get skills or not. Those people are already being horrid people.

Exactly, why give them more ammo?

Truth is I've seen games that go the other route, and it's not very pretty. There's no challenge with a high level in the party since, even with level syncing, they carry their skills with them. CoH was one the games that did this, and even had a mentor/sidekick system that allowed it to work both ways. It was always infinitely more challenging to have a sidekick since the enemies the mentor would fight would be designed for the mentor's abilities, which are progressive, while the sidekick, who may be scaled up, still has their low level abilities.
There's a reason so many games opt for XIV's model.

[Eidolon]

Then it's not for you. I find killing bees outside Ul'Dah boring, but new players still do it and it's fun at the time as they figure out how their skills work.

Those mobs are put there for two reasons:

EXP targets
Mats

That's it. Hunting log = EXP. Companion = EXP. Drops = Mats. Etcetera.

At my current phase, there's no reason I'd want to go back there. So yea. If killing bees suits your fancy? That's fine. It has purpose to you. But not for me. Low levels, however, still have a use to me.

Oh yeah it is. But when a SINGLE rotation can do it without even trying? Or better yet, when a BLM can use their "infinite combo" and keep hate better than any lowbie tank? Why bother having a tank when the BLM is doing better damage, keeping better aggro, and taking only slightly more damage? Low level dungeons ARE a "joke" because they're meant for low levels.

You've... never healed a BLM trying to tank more than one mob at a time, have you? Black Mages suffer a fun little thing that can happen when they're taking damage - namely, interrupting their casts. This is more common with on-level and higher-level enemies.

If you're -that- concerned about it, you know that SE can easily re-tune skills that "While level synched: X potency" right? They do things like this for PVP already.

What about those who DON'T have those skills? I can't believe I have to say this, I really can't, but high level play is NOT low level play. Also, there's a certain point when even quelling strikes can't help you. I am not joking when I say i've peeled aggro off a tank while quelling strikes is up with a single BLM combo. And this was a tank WITH shield oath/defiance on. How do you think that will go down in low level dungeons with tanks NOT having those abilities yet?

I can't believe I have to say this, I really can't, but Low Level play doesn't need to be a chore for people who have gone through the experience once already. Not only that, by limiting the skills, you are effectively hurting leveling players.

Let's say Player A does 1 dungoun a day, via the roulette. Let's say every time, he gets the level 15-20 dungouns, as is very likely to happen (I swear I don't know why ... but I always seem to get it if I ever bother doing it)

Now. Let's say he got to 40 doing this. How much of his rotation do you think he knows in level 40 now? How much of his skills do you think he's gotten to practically use? By dumbing down the content so much, you've literally reduced the amount that people get to use meaningfully.

This is why so many people refer to players who don't know their rotations as "Fate levelers."

Sure that'd be "great" but you're forgetting the reverse: What about the statistically more likely scenario when you DON'T have a 50 tank or healer? A low level tank is not designed to be able to hold aggro off a full-rotation BLM, BRD or MNK. They simply do not have the tools yet.

I won't say one is impossible to happen. That is why they would probably need to tool it a little better. But I am curious as to one thing:

Why do you think it's "Statistically more likely that we dont' have a level 50 tank or healer"? Is this just one of those legendary made up statistics I heard about, or is it just a "Tend you noticed" and I need to take your word for it?

That's a little off-tangent, but if you're going to argue it, I want to know where you get your "Numbers" from.

Faster runs don't necessarily mean BETTER runs. Running a dungeon should be a learning experience for people within the level bracket. What you're suggesting is basically carrying new players through dungeons the way people are carried through the new primals by light farms. You're excising an important part of the learning experience for the sake of speed.

It also enables us to better support the new players. I've had a number of times in level 50 unlevel synched dungouns where me having more gear enabled me to do more. When healing? I can heal and DPS, making up for any deficiencies. With tanking? I can put on more VIT if my healer is weaker, or I can put on STR if I want to push things faster. With DPS? I can physic if my healer goes down (BLM), Res if someone dies (SMN), mitigate damage and self-heal (any other DPS), and at times handle mechanics that others might usually do.

I'm not saying drop us in there at level 50 for a level 15 dungoun. Though if someone wants that? I wouldn't mind them having that option.

Exactly, why give them more ammo?

It's not ammo. And at the same time, you're shooting yourself in the foot. Because you remove people like myself who WOULD go and help people who aren't going to because we dont' consider it fun. In a desperation to protect one subsect, people forget they isolate others.

Truth is I've seen games that go the other route, and it's not very pretty. There's no challenge with a high level in the party since, even with level syncing, they carry their skills with them. CoH was one the games that did this, and even had a mentor/sidekick system that allowed it to work both ways. It was always infinitely more challenging to have a sidekick since the enemies the mentor would fight would be designed for the mentor's abilities, which are progressive, while the sidekick, who may be scaled up, still has their low level abilities.

Yea. I've seen the Scale-up idea a number of times. I agree with you - that is aweful, while level synchs and mentor systems tend to work pretty well because you're weakening players.

[LunaHoshino]

Having access to our full kits, you're neglecting we get ways to manage our threat. Dragoons recieve elusive jump. Black Mage and Summoner cross-class Quelling Strikes. Monk has naturally low potency strikes to avoid generating large threat and relies on pumping out damage fast to make up for it. Not having access to these skills actually reduces our abilities to reduce threat.

This. I accidentally ripped hate off a low-level tank in Brayflox NM the other day despite trying to be careful. Naturally, when I saw it happen, I hit my Elusive Jump key with the intent of dumping aggro so that the tank could take it back... except oh wait, I can't use that skill at that level. So I had no choice but to just sit there and let the enemy hit me until the tank could grab it back, which meant that the healer had to heal the tank AND me while that was happening.

At least in a higher-level dungeon, if I do rip hate, I can dump it easily and make things easier for the tank. I'm MORE likely to steal aggro in a lower-level dungeon and yet I have no way of mitigating that if it does happen (and it can happen despite being as careful as possible if the tank is not experienced).

[Felis]

This. I accidentally ripped hate off a low-level tank in Brayflox NM the other day despite trying to be careful. Naturally, when I saw it happen, I hit my Elusive Jump key with the intent of dumping aggro so that the tank could take it back... except oh wait, I can't use that skill at that level. So I had no choice but to just sit there and let the enemy hit me until the tank could grab it back, which meant that the healer had to heal the tank AND me while that was happening.

At least in a higher-level dungeon, if I do rip hate, I can dump it easily and make things easier for the tank. I'm MORE likely to steal aggro in a lower-level dungeon and yet I have no way of mitigating that if it does happen (and it can happen despite being as careful as possible if the tank is not experienced).

Switch enemy the moment the aggro color change from yellow to orange.

[LunaHoshino]

Switch enemy the moment the aggro color change from yellow to orange.

The problem is that with low-level, inexperienced tanks, sometimes that can happen within two button presses and by the time you realize that you've suddenly shot way up the aggro meter, you're tanking the whatever it is. I have ripped hate off of newbie tanks with just three or so moves. Not even going full out, just my basic, level-synced rotation. It is EXTREMELY easy (especially for DRGs, BRDs and BLMs) to accidentally steal aggro in lower-level stuff if you are level synced and the tank is not. Without things like Elusive Jump and Quelling Strikes, there's nothing we can do to lower our hate if that happens.