Take it easy on the Nerfing :/

[Allyrion]

The relevance is comparing the difficulty of content back when WoW was gaining subs, vs when they stopped gaining and started losing subs. People keep saying "make it easier, look WoW has a millions of subscribers", but they ignore (or just don't know) the fact in the early days WoW was hard, and the recent (well, with WoW's age, more like half a decade ago) trend everyone is comparing to was when they were in fact losing subscriptions. You can't point at WoW's millions and say it has these numbers because the game was a casual themepark, when the whole time it was in that era, subs dropped. You have to look at where subs were gained, and that was in a time when WoW was way more sandboxy, and had difficult but rewarding content. One last thing, I'm not using difficult here just for raid type content. Dungeons don't have to be T9. However even dungeons have turned into brainless activities that more act as a timer to your 75 soldiery bonus rather than something to work together to clear and beat. Compare that to WoW's old dungeons, which required CCing, watching patrolling monsters, and maneuvering around mob groups.

I don't want to derail this thread into a discussion of WoW, but you have a very skewed perspective.

WoW, from its very inception, was made as a casual MMO. It was the first big MMO to allow leveling through questing and simplified everything compared to the other MMOs at the time.
Even the first WoW raids were not hard, they were just long. Regardless, less than 1% of its subs at the time even raided back then.
So it's sub count had little to do with the raid content back then, and had a lot to do with its accessibility.

It continued to make end-game content more accessible by reducing raid sizes.
Its sub rose accordingly and peaked at WotLK which was the most casual expansion to date. They lost subs into Cata, which was for a variety of reasons but if anything Cata was less casual than Wrath until last tier.
When talking about WoW, anyone dealing with the more challenging content is in the vast minority.
I was one of people raiding back then but I hold no illusions that if I and all the others raiders left the game back then, you wouldn't even have seen a dent in their sub count.

That said, I actually want FFXIV to introduce challenging dungeons like they did earlier on.
But I don't really mind the echo creep as a way for people to catch up. But mechanics and the dungeon itself shouldn't be nerfed.
I want challenging content, but don't paint history to suit yourself.
Successful MMO's always have to balance appeasing both crowds and creating an environment of progression for everyone.

[Magis]

snip

Since when has failure become so taboo? Yes failures are going to happen, that is how you learn. To your case about people who don't listen or troll... then kick those players out, there is a feature for that already. If the troll report them to a GM, since that is considered harassment. The ones who don't listen won't progress until they change their attitude, the ones who troll will be punished.

Well, then the argument would still be that you can't progress to 4.0 cause 3.0 is now "gated". As I said, it should start somewhere.

[Dhex]

The problem for me with FFXIV is that the content isn't designed to have any staying power.

Theyve made extra work for themselves because there are no reasons to go back - so they have to nerf/change/modify/add incentives to old content constantly.

It makes the game feel very hollow and it begins to cater to the lowest common denominator (least invested players) which is counter intuitive to maintaining a healthy community.

[Skivvy]

The problem for me with FFXIV is that the content isn't designed to have any staying power.

Theyve made extra work for themselves because there are no reasons to go back - so they have to nerf/change/modify/add incentives to old content constantly.

It makes the game feel very hollow and it begins to cater to the lowest common denominator (least invested players) which is counter intuitive to maintaining a healthy community.

Sadly, a lot of things add to that hollow feeling. One of my biggest gripes in game is that the overworld poses no real threat at all. I can run through a pack of 5 mobs and be just fine. I'd like to see them add a bit of challenge to the open world. But that's a discussion for a different thread

[RiceisNice]

...

It's clearly taboo if people are willing to abandon after 3-5 wipes on T5, leaving because a failure would take too long. Sadly, if only it were that simple, but they hardly ever act on player disputes. Best you can do is yes, kick them. Getting a new person is just as hit or miss because they can literally just rejoin anyway.

And you know what? Gating 4.0 because they can't handle the process of finishing 3.0 content is a hell lot more reasonable than gating 3.0 from players because the process of the end of 2.0 can't be done. Though we can still agree that it needs to start somewhere I feel it shouldn't start at the end of a content that makes it mandatory for 3.0 (which is literally a month away.) It's all in perspective, 4.0 is a long time away if we even get there.

[Magis]

It's clearly taboo if people are willing to abandon after 3-5 wipes on T5, leaving because a failure would take too long. Sadly, if only it were that simple, but they hardly ever act on player disputes. Best you can do is yes, kick them. Getting a new person is just as hit or miss because they can literally just rejoin anyway.

And you know what? Gating 4.0 because they can't handle the process of finishing 3.0 content is a hell lot more reasonable than gating 3.0 from players because the process of the end of 2.0 can't be done. Though we can still agree that it needs to start somewhere I feel it shouldn't start at the end of a content that makes it mandatory for 3.0 (which is literally a month away.) It's all in perspective, 4.0 is a long time away if we even get there.

Which is a shame, but not surprising since the whole game is built around things being completed quickly. Dungeons are quick, leveling is quick, getting gear is quick. So you throw in something that takes more than a few tries and people don't get why they are not clearing T5 on the first try. Mind you, since your talking about T5, one should come into the mindset that it will take a while... maybe even the full timer since it is a raid instance.

I can agree with that. ARR is touted as bringing in the new players while Heavensward will amp up the content.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion, it's made this boring work day go by fast.

[Mercutial]

Sadly, a lot of things add to that hollow feeling. One of my biggest gripes in game is that the overworld poses no real threat at all. I can run through a pack of 5 mobs and be just fine. I'd like to see them add a bit of challenge to the open world. But that's a discussion for a different thread

Your orders (should you choose to accept them) are to go to Southern Thanalan and have Heavy reapplied 10 consecutive times on your journey. Report back here with how much fun that is.

[Eidolon]

Your orders (should you choose to accept them) are to go to Southern Thanalan and have Heavy reapplied 10 consecutive times on your journey. Report back here with how much fun that is.

Because we all know that Heavy adds challenge or danger to the overworld! That's clearly what they are talking about.

Wait. No it's not. Matter of fact, the fact that I COULD go out and get heavy applied 10 times and suffer only a mild incomvenience shows just how non threatening and how much of a joke the world is.

[RiceisNice]

...

It's the first civilized discussion I got on this forum (it didn't break down into insults or derailed) so likewise.

And on the topic of T5, you have to remember that it intially was a raid instance that required pre-forms only. A raid that's exclusive to pre-formed is a completely different beast than something you'd do on DF (compare Coil to Crystal Tower). It's just that, you do not get that mindset, at all when you're doing Turns 1, 2, lol3, and 4 with echo, and espesically SCoB post-nerf (which would again, cause problems going from a pre-made exclusive to DF, esp with how mechanic heavy it is).

Also keep in context that ARR was literally saving itself from 1.0. When ressurecting a dying game, you really can't afford to take huge risks with catering to one extreme or another. They'll definitely have more lee-way with 3.0 considering 2.0's success, maybe they'll actually implement meaningful expert dungeons like I suggested in my (dead) thread.

[Whocareswhatmynameis]

Ya i kind of fear for Heavensward a little. Not that it will lose a ton of subs, but that it will just be so easy that it's not fun anymore. Launching level 80 dungeons and level 120 gear in the same patch seems a little odd to me (patch 2.4). I feel they need to find a better middle ground between really hard and really easy. Older dungeons can be easy sure but i feel the newest ones should be at least medium difficult.

Seems kind of strange they would make 90% of the game offer little to no challenge.