Take it easy on the Nerfing :/

[SDaemon]

The fact that SE themselves said that no one is doing savage like they expected should speak for itself. As for me, personally, I will play anything regardless of its reward at least once, because its fun. To me, a game is about having fun. I am speaking about what SE said when they brought it up in the live letter. I'll believe them over anyone else , as they have access to data, clears, and how many times people attempt something. So that, is who I am to say that.

Speaks for itself? Hardly. If no one at all, like you claim, enjoyed a challenge for the sake of a challenge/titles then no one would have cleared Savage Coil. Players have done Savage Coil, that can't be denied. That right there throws your statement out the window.

How many players do is another matter, but this: "Not sure what world you live in...but people are not going to do something like that that offers no reward at all, because guess what? No one is going to waste their time for something that is not beneficial to their time." is hogwash.

[Ablongman]

Gear motivates the majority of the playerbase to do content that is just the way it is. Personally I would like to do savage mode because I like to do the hardest content but finding 7 other people that will want to do savage mode is very hard. Unlike FCoB where it is very easy to find players to do the content because it drops gear.

Which is why in Havensward the savage modes will drop the best gear so many more people will want to do it.

That's very facile logic though, isn't it? "It is that way because it is that way, so it will continue to be that way."

People are herded into FCoB to get gear because they can't get that gear, which is often BiS, any other way. That's the expectation that's been created, but it doesn't mean it HAS to be that way.

Look at it from this perspective: If power (gear) was all players wanted, F2P games would directly sell power in their shops. A few do, yes, but not all do. Yet their shops sell. What do they sell? Things people want. Put those things in raids, and suddenly you have player motivation!

If FCoB dropped unique glamour items, if the achievements unlocked alternative animations and spell effects, if it dropped unique mounts, wouldn't people do them?

Heck, we don't need to go that far. EX Primals are being farmed to oblivion to this day, and have been for months and months. Would you struggle to find an EX farm party? Not at all. Why not? It's not because they award power. It's because they award something people want that ISN'T power. They've been desirable for longer than FCoB.

Just food for thought! I don't disagree that Savage is not very popular outside of statics because of its reward scheme. I don't think that means gear is the only solution, because we've seen that's not true.

[Niwashi]

I don't disagree that Savage is not very popular outside of statics because of its reward scheme. I don't think that means gear is the only solution, because we've seen that's not true.

Savage mode was created for a specific reason and that was to offer extra challenge to those who want it. It's not very popular because in fact most players don't want challenge. But it's there for the few who do. There's a limit to how much you should try to herd people into doing what they don't like to do in a game. If it's designed to be highly challenging, then it shouldn't have exclusive rewards, because exclusive rewards would force everyone who wants those rewards into having to do Savage Mode whether they want to or not. That in turn forces nerfing "savage" mode to be accessible to everyone, at which point it no longer serves its purpose for the people it was originally designed for. This holds true regardless of whether those exclusive rewards are powerful gear, cosmetic gear, mounts, or whatever. So long as they're both desirable and exclusive, Savage mode won't stay savage.

What it can offer, however, is a faster way to get some of the rewards that would be a long grind or rarer drop elsewhere. That can provide some real reward for the people who do the harder version without forcing it on those who don't want to.

[Ablongman]

If it's designed to be highly challenging, then it shouldn't have exclusive rewards, because exclusive rewards would force everyone who wants those rewards into having to do Savage Mode whether they want to or not. That in turn forces nerfing "savage" mode to be accessible to everyone, at which point it no longer serves its purpose for the people it was originally designed for. This holds true regardless of whether those exclusive rewards are powerful gear, cosmetic gear, mounts, or whatever. So long as they're both desirable and exclusive, Savage mode won't stay savage.

What it can offer, however, is a faster way to get some of the rewards that would be a long grind or rarer drop elsewhere. That can provide some real reward for the people who do the harder version without forcing it on those who don't want to.

Well, I don't think exclusive rewards would be an issue, provided those exclusive rewards do not provide a numerical advantage that widens the gap between those who are capable of pulling off gear-adjusted Savage versus those who cannot in areas where gear numbers would matter (i.e. FCoB).

But I do think having an alternative that checks persistence rather than skill to obtain those items would be reasonable. What is key, in my opinion, is that the power-as-reward method is problematic and should be abolished entirely from progression content.

One possibility would be to replace the stuff in FCoB-equivalent content with other desirable items for players who clear it (including glamours so they can distinguish themselves), keep power rewards as tomestone gear that trickles equally across all who do "endgame" content (and incrementally ease the cap to allow people who are late to a tier to meet gear requirements to join endgame raiding), and suddenly you have a playing field where the skillfull can set themselves apart without an unnecessary power gap. A skilled player can already maximize a character's potential and do far more than an average or subpar player, so to stack a huge power differential on top of that, like what we had prior to the WoD weekly, is just unnecessary.

[Elusana_Celah]

Why can't a juicy reward be behind a challenge barrier or somehow it's unfair and unreasonable?

[Gardes]

Why can't a juicy reward be behind a challenge barrier or somehow it's unfair and unreasonable?

Because unskilled players are hell bent on taking down skilled players a peg.

Then they'd get confused when the skilled players doesn't want to have anything to do with them after all that "you don't matter, we're more than you" garbage they keep spouting.

[Skivvy]

Because unskilled players are hell bent on taking down skilled players a peg.

Then they'd get confused when the skilled players doesn't want to have anything to do with them after all that "you don't matter, we're more than you" garbage they keep spouting.

lol, what a load of rubbish. Do you people even read what you write anymore?

[MilesSaintboroguh]

is it safe to assume that people are only talking about this still because they are waiting for the expansion pack to come out?

[Elusana_Celah]

lol, what a load of rubbish. Do you people even read what you write anymore?

You can prove what he says as rubbish by offering a counter-argument instead of simply calling it "rubbish" which would make you look a lot more mature rather than an angry kid who didn't like something someone said on the internet.

[Darkshaunz]

You can prove what he says as rubbish by offering a counter-argument instead of simply calling it "rubbish" which would make you look a lot more mature rather than an angry kid who didn't like something someone said on the internet.

So a guy accuses a bunch of people of being "unskilled", and then goes on to spout out some conspiracy that said "unskilled persons" are out to drag others down "to their level". This, by the way - an accusation that is completely baseless and founded on absolutely nothing. I'll let you decide on whether or not that might also be seen as immature and angry.

Square Enix deploys and develops patches based on their Hard Data, which they collect from their players and servers. They make changes based on actual numbers, and has nothing to do with the emotions of people, and judging by the vitriol just within this one thread - Thank the Twelve for that.