I don't want to use parsers

[NovaUltimatum]

I worry that even if DPS/Total Damage values were shown to under-performing players, they would still put just as much effort in as they usually do. Sure there will be those who try harder when they found out their performance but what happens to those who don't use the information? Would you kick them for it? My question is what will the community do to those people?

[Craiger]

I worry that even if DPS/Total Damage values were shown to under-performing players, they would still put just as much effort in as they usually do. Sure there will be those who try harder when they found out their performance but what happens to those who don't use the information? Would you kick them for it? My question is what will the community do to those people?

It won't work on all players, but there are a ton of people that play on consoles and can't see their DPS... And when they ask about it, and see that they don't do as much DPS as they want, they many times try to improve. That's the biggest point about having an in-game parser.

Also, if someone isn't doing enough DPS for raid content, and they don't care about it, then yes... You could kick them.

Only reason you don't see people pointing out DPS of others, is because they could get banned for doing it, but trust me... if someone is doing way too low DPS, they will get kicked, or people will simply leave the group (usually the latter one).

The positives of adding an in-game parser heavily outweighs the negatives IMO.

[Havenchild]

Also, if someone isn't doing enough DPS for raid content, and they don't care about it, then yes... You could kick them.

Only reason you don't see people pointing out DPS of others, is because they could get banned for doing it, but trust me... if someone is doing way too low DPS, they will get kicked, or people will simply leave the group (usually the latter one).

The positives of adding an in-game parser heavily outweighs the negatives IMO.

This 100%. Let's cut the bs already. People need to grow a backbone on this argument against parsers.

You don't have to use a parser, but if you're struggling to clear the content due to a DPS check? You deserve to keep failing due to your mentality that the parser is the problem not the people using them for negative means.

Trust me, if the actual good players are using parsers and they see people under performing considerably, they don't need to mention you're doing bad and won't because it's against ToS. You will instead be ostracized unknowingly by members of the community and continue to struggle and move from party to party. Your name will get tarnished among the actual good players and less of them will be inclined to take you or run with you. Let's stop acting like this doesn't happen already because it does daily.

Then when you have the actual good player try to voice their concern and help those under performing? So many times are we insulted with this bravado that they "know what they are doing". Clearly you don't because you are doing poorly. This, along with the nerfing of content meant to be difficult, is breeding bad DPS because ultimately they have no metric to answer to. They have no REASON to perform well and can instead remain in ignorance while others carry them.

Just the other day, I ran with a NIN and a DRG in T10 alongside a BRD friend of mine. Both that NIN and DRG WITH ECHO, are doing barely 300 DPS. If it wasn't for myself and the BRD and the SCH who were all out damaging these players, we likely wouldn't have cleared this content and this is the cesspool you will deal with on DF and even PF.

It's time people stop blaming the tool for the problem and not the people who are using it for bad means. I believe someone before said here, you can use a hammer for two purposes.

It can be used to make great buildings and constructs which will create jobs and stimulate growth universally, or it can be used as a tool of murder. Does that mean we should ban the use of hammers in daily life because people can murder with them?

Grow up already people.

[Cynfael]

Snip.

I wish more people would adopt this viewpoint. Perhaps if players performing poorly as DPS were better able to quantify their output and that of their peers, they might start to wonder why they aren't in the ballpark of similarly-geared players of the same Job.

I'd rather have parsers be more widely and officially available to help promote self-realization of the need to improve. People are notoriously unreceptive even to the best-intentioned help and seem to do better if "getting good" is their own idea.

[Cynfael]

I worry that even if DPS/Total Damage values were shown to under-performing players, they would still put just as much effort in as they usually do. Sure there will be those who try harder when they found out their performance but what happens to those who don't use the information? Would you kick them for it? My question is what will the community do to those people?

This might sound cold, but if a player knows that they have issues that are affecting their parties and flat-out refuses to do anything about them, am I supposed to care what the community will do to them?

I don't harass such players; I simply avoid them once I identify them. If someone is performing so poorly that they are holding back 7 other people, and if they are both aware that they have a problem and unwilling to "try harder," they need to go.

[MrSmiley]

This might sound cold, but if a player knows that they have issues that are affecting their parties and flat-out refuses to do anything about them, am I supposed to care what the community will do to them?

I don't harass such players; I simply avoid them once I identify them. If someone is performing so poorly that they are holding back 7 other people, and if they are both aware that they have a problem and unwilling to "try harder," they need to go.

This unfortunately...we can only be so nice.

[Dement]

There are also instances in which having your own parser data could help to disprove others.

When I first hit endgame in the 2.0 days as a MNK playing on PS3, I was trying to get my Titan clear. I had looked at rotations and knew the basic fundamentals of my job but I'm not holding any illusions that I was anything above average. In any event, I get into a party for 6/8 or 7/8 from the same FC, who are trying to get a clear for one of their members. The BLM runs underneath Titan everytime he jumps and dies, as such we are fighting with 3/4 DPS the entire time while I didn't get hit by anything. After 3 wipes, they all suddenly drop and then say "MNK has too low DPS" and boot me. I wanted to quit trying at that point but saw another shout and joined that party, determined to try it once more. We ended up one shotting and I was told that my DPS was 'average'.

Basically I was average for a player just entering endgame but I didn't have high enough DPS to overcome the BLM constantly dying. Had I had any indication what my own DPS was from the game, I may not have felt as bad about the way the first party treated me.

[Allyrion]

There are also instances in which having your own parser data could help to disprove others.

When I first hit endgame in the 2.0 days as a MNK playing on PS3, I was trying to get my Titan clear. I had looked at rotations and knew the basic fundamentals of my job but I'm not holding any illusions that I was anything above average. In any event, I get into a party for 6/8 or 7/8 from the same FC, who are trying to get a clear for one of their members. The BLM runs underneath Titan everytime he jumps and dies, as such we are fighting with 3/4 DPS the entire time while I didn't get hit by anything. After 3 wipes, they all suddenly drop and then say "MNK has too low DPS" and boot me. I wanted to quit trying at that point but saw another shout and joined that party, determined to try it once more. We ended up one shotting and I was told that my DPS was 'average'.

Basically I was average for a player just entering endgame but I didn't have high enough DPS to overcome the BLM constantly dying. Had I had any indication what my own DPS was from the game, I may not have felt as bad about the way the first party treated me.

Exactly.
Good parsers can show all that happened during a fight. All that parsers gives are facts and numbers.
What players do with them is up to the players themselves. The players that would abuse them, probably already are anyway. They're just not saying it.

Information is a good thing, and with good parsing things beyond 'who has the highest dps' can be accounted for.
There's nothing wrong with knowing where you stand. Unlike healing or tanking, dps has a more fluid effect.
It's great if the content got cleared, but you should know if you got carried.

Progression isn't only about getting gear, it's about learning the fights too. It's about improving as a player as well.
I know some people get antsy at the thought of competition, but it's not even about that.
Any notion of progression in an MMO otherwise should involve trying to be better.
Otherwise you'd wipe once on a boss and drop the game forever.

That's not the case. People try to figure out their mechanical mistakes. It's reasonable to expect them to figure out how to maximize their job as well.
Parsers provide the information to allow for that.
People are jerks no matter what. Why should such useful information be held back so some could be blissfully ignorant?