The constant disbanding of Steps of Faith

[Zaft]

Not the point -- I think they overestimated the skill level of this playerbase, and did so HORRIBLY.

So horribly that it is now compromising the game experiences of a number of the players.

That scares me though. Steps of Faith is an incredibly basic fight. If you want to compare it to anything, it could easily be compared to the airship battle in ICC, which was known as the "lootship" because of how easy it was. If something that would be considered a joke of a fight on other MMOs is considered hard here, just how low does SE need to set the bar to not "compromise" the game experience?

[kyuven]

That scares me though. Steps of Faith is an incredibly basic fight. If you want to compare it to anything, it could easily be compared to the airship battle in ICC, which was known as the "lootship" because of how easy it was. If something that would be considered a joke of a fight on other MMOs is considered hard here, just how low does SE need to set the bar to not "compromise" the game experience?

Better comparison to WoW encounters i've seen would be the Oculus. Something that's completely outside the norm for encounters up to that point that everyone avoids because it's completely outside the norm for encounters up to that point.

[BreathlessTao]

This population needs, badly, an investigation as to whether the 82 RMT outfits who are spamming the crap out of us are getting people buying characters, because the level of players who don't even deserve a Level 50, much less an ilevel one hundred and something, truly makes me fear for the future of this game.

It's time to stop accumulating character numbers when half of them (I hope it's not that, but would not be shocked!) are RMT and a lot of the rest should belong back in Vana'diel.

Harsh... but can't argue the truth in it.

The problem is people going into SoF drop when they zone in, or drop after 1 wipe, so there's no opportunity to learn for them with one consistent group.
Plus some people just don't care.

It's not a problem only related to SoF, tbh... everywhere you go, even in PF listings, everyone just expects you to know everything. Willing to teach or practice with you? Nope. But you can buy clears if you want to get the content done anyway.

Not the point -- I think they overestimated the skill level of this playerbase, and did so HORRIBLY.

It's not overestimation, if you ask me... It's the fact that about 99% (ok, let's be generous, 98%) of all MSQ, and even most sidequests, is such an incredible faceroll... especially with the ridiculously (and admittedly!) overgeared state most everyone is in for those... that something like SoF was just too jarring a difference, when it comes to complexity and the whole permanent-progress-style of it. We're being led, both hands held, through almost the entire game, with candy-like handouts, and then thrown into something that's akin to deep, stormy sea to someone who's freshly learned how to swim. Yes, there's Coil, but on one hand it's completely optional, on the other it's a whole different thing, especially when it comes to learning. So, considering only MSQ, you can't be surprised at people who rush through everything can't cope with what SoF is.

[JimboTCB]

Better comparison to WoW encounters i've seen would be the Oculus. Something that's completely outside the norm for encounters up to that point that everyone avoids because it's completely outside the norm for encounters up to that point.

And also like Oculus, it's annoying and over-long, requires explaining lots of stuff to new people, and the rewards are no better than anything else in the same content pool for all the effort it requires.

WOW "fixed" their Oculus by adding bonus loot to it, which largely stopped people quitting out of it the instant they saw it pop up on random dungeons. More carrot, less stick, no more nerfs. Just add a TT card, a pet, some vanity items or whatever as a potential reward for doing Steps via roulette and you'll see a whole bunch of people suddenly becoming very interested in seeing it through to the end when they land in it.

[Nalien]

And also like Oculus, it's annoying and over-long, requires explaining lots of stuff to new people, and the rewards are no better than anything else in the same content pool for all the effort it requires.

Lots? When I beat it (and I doubt this was even the smart strategy in terms of delegating roles) I recall saying little more than;

<Person1> and me on cannons and hit Snare when needed (we were both DPS).
DPS kill adds.
Tanks pull adds in front of Vishap so cannons can hit.
<Person2> run up to Dragon Killer and fire when I say.
Everyone focus Vishap after adds/cannons dead.
(First Dragon Killer) Fire.
(After Snare) Fire.
(After Snare) Fire.

That's less than 50 words? I had to explain more for Garuda (Hard) and Titan (Hard), granted that was when they were new and not insanely easy to faceroll. Perhaps it's about time they put a level cap on those so people actually have to pay attention to mechanics there again... Always irked me how much of a joke they became, they were originally the only challenge outside Coil, not really surprised people are so incompetent now that they're so easy...

[Alistaire]

Better comparison to WoW encounters i've seen would be the Oculus. Something that's completely outside the norm for encounters up to that point that everyone avoids because it's completely outside the norm for encounters up to that point.

You guys make it sound like this "out of the norm" is hard or something. Tanks and healers on cannon duty before? Stone Vigil HM. DPS should avoid fighting adds? Tamtara HM. Fights where someone needs to run from the boss, click an object to do some mechanic? Copperbell HM.

I'd be really annoyed at running into players in any of these that couldn't grasp those mechanics. Yet somehow this happens quite a bit in Steps. I honestly don't get why people derp so hard on this fight.

[Zaft]

You guys make it sound like this "out of the norm" is hard or something. Tanks and healers on cannon duty before? Stone Vigil HM. DPS should avoid fighting adds? Tamtara HM. Fights where someone needs to run from the boss, click an object to do some mechanic? Copperbell HM.

I'd be really annoyed at running into players in any of these that couldn't grasp those mechanics. Yet somehow this happens quite a bit in Steps. I honestly don't get why people derp so hard on this fight.

That's the thing. This isn't like the Oculus, which introduced new things that had NEVER been done before (having to use the dragons as the combatants, fighting in the air, etc). This is just a combination of stuff we've already done. It's like taking a midterm or a final. Nothing is new, it's just a combination of previous stuff.

[Seiryuukishi]

If something that would be considered a joke of a fight on other MMOs is considered hard here, just how low does SE need to set the bar to not "compromise" the game experience?

That's just it, there's no way of knowing what standard to set because the player base are human beings. What you and I and probably most of us have encountered in our various MMO history gave us the tools to adapt to things like this. After learning it, it actually appears easy to those with a trained set of eyes and have a concept of how these things play out. Newer gamers to MMOs maybe not so much. Some may view it as a challenge while others may see it to be hard.

With people always using the "time" excuse, it sort of forces Yoshida and Co.'s hand. Why that argument even exists in a form of entertainment designed to waste time is beyond me. I think people want to make time=difficulty and it won't happen. So when we get something with flavor that takes five minutes longer to do than Howling Eye Hard, people cry foul. On the other hand you have people with huge learning curves so it takes them longer to complete content with some degree of difficulty then they typically would. It's not entirely their fault; it could be they have trouble grasping simple instructions or maybe they were unable to retain information gathered via video or written guide. This mostly in turn causes them to give up or be more prone to do so.

It's all mentality, really. But as far as SE setting a standard it's difficult to say. I think they're giving us a taste of some things to come in Heavensward but if people can't get up to speed or just won't "try" it'll be for naught.

[Starcade]

That scares me though. Steps of Faith is an incredibly basic fight. If you want to compare it to anything, it could easily be compared to the airship battle in ICC, which was known as the "lootship" because of how easy it was. If something that would be considered a joke of a fight on other MMOs is considered hard here, just how low does SE need to set the bar to not "compromise" the game experience?

It's a basic fight, with the understanding that it actually requires actual gameplay rather than rote facerolling.

You actually take many of the players who are set in roles, disrupt those roles, and make them do something else.

And many of these people cannot do that -- and that's why I fear for the availability of decent 3.0 players when we get that far.