DEV REQUEST:DUEL/SPAR system

[kyuven]

A bold statement there friend, I did not realize you were our spokesman. Do not assume you know that; you dislike that I called those people children, well that is what they are, children act selfish and immature only caring about their own self, that is what a child does, and that is what many people crying about this are doing. So yes, children. Don't like that, then don't act like it. P.S. Don't speak for the majority of people, because you are NOT, and that is extremely insulting.

Wanna know the truth?
*I* wouldn't mind PVP duels. It might even be fun. I used to do it from time to time in older games and games that allow it I always give it a shot and rarely turn one down.
However, what *I* want isn't the issue here. What the COMMUNITY wants and what the DEVS want is what's important.
This game did not have PVP from the start. It is not a PVP-centric game. PVP is completely an afterthought. The devs clearly don't care about it, and you see more posts complaining about EYE COLOR than you do about the lack of PVP on this game's forums.
Therefore, it stands to reason that PVP isn't a big priority among players either.
Now, let me guide you to my thought processes on why OPEN WORLD PVP duels would be a bad idea.
What is the most annoying thing Dragoons do in the open world?
Ring of Thorns. It's loud and obnoxious.
What is the most annoying thing players do?
Emote spam.
What do duels involve?
Way more than ring of thorns. Things that are noisy and flashy.
What does open world PVP dueling allow? Dueling in towns.
What you are basically asking for is another tool to allow people to be annoyed, while offering no benefit beyond QoL and ePeen measuring contests.
There IS a solution, however, using instancing. But this would involve developer and server resources which are already limited, and with the classes unbalanced the resources simply would not be worth the time at this point.
part of being an adult is knowing you can't have everything you want.

[Nalien]

This game did not have PVP from the start. It is not a PVP-centric game. PVP is completely an afterthought.

You know PvP was planned from the beginning, right? We knew Frontlines was coming before this game even had an alpha version... Is the game PvP-centric? No, sure, it's a story driven MMO, of course it isn't. Is PvP an afterthought though? IDK, interviews about what 3.0 was going to be (before we knew) and mention of Frontlines-style content back when I was fighting Nael Desu Darnus in 1.0 kind of give me the impression that they were thinking about PvP before they even decided on the theme/locations for 3.0.

The devs clearly don't care about it, and you see more posts complaining about EYE COLOR than you do about the lack of PVP on this game's forums.

No, you see more posts complaining about eye colour in the General Discussion section (which on a good day is a cesspool of inane threads anyway). You don't see many threads here about PvP because the PvP subsection is a thing. A thing the community reps seem to out right ignore, sure, but that is where the majority the PvP-centric comments go.

As for the devs not caring about it... Is that why Heavensward is going to have a new gameplay mode for Frontlines complete with new map? Is that why they (somewhat) recently added Slaughter to Frontlines? They care about providing PvP content, that much is obvious. It's also obvious that they're ignoring the real problems with PvP in favour of just pushing out more maps, much to my dismay.

There IS a solution, however, using instancing. But this would involve developer and server resources which are already limited, and with the classes unbalanced the resources simply would not be worth the time at this point.
part of being an adult is knowing you can't have everything you want.

The PvP teams resources (yes, they have a whole team dedicated to PvP, again, clearly they care about PvP) may be limited to make a simple adjustment to Wolves Den to allow 1v1 (lol?), but that is because they are wasting their resources on things like Slaughter and whatever horror 3.0 holds in store. This isn't like the plethora of Housing issues we have where they can just go "We'll the team was working on Gold Saucer", it's not a lack of resources, it's the misuse of them which is damaging PvP. Wolves Den was introduced very early on in this games life, and since then it has constantly been ignored, rather than fixed. Not really surprised Frontlines ended up suffering similar issues.

Instead of fixing those issues, they opt to make matters worse by further splitting the community with more game modes. I know they have fixes planned and glorious things like PvP Tournaments in store, having followed most of their interviews over the years, but it is always "after this Frontlines content". It's infuriating at this point...

[kyuven]

snip

I'm sure they were planning PVP, but let me tell you something...if it's not in the game at launch then it is not a high priority for the dev team. Housing wasn't there either, and look at the complaints there.
Frontlines isn't "traditional PVP" and is still rather unpopular compared to many other aspects of the game. It's point capture, and you're given so many tools that are different from normal gameplay it's almost like driving a tank or car when you normally walk. I really don't understand what they mean by "traditional PVP" but let's take a look at that shall we?
Frontlines uses a set of skills you don't have access to under normal circumstances. PVP is therefore divided from PVE by more than just instances. To make duels, they would have to have the ability to summon up those skills in the open world, OR forego them entirely. This requires time and effort, and testing. What happens if a player uses Repelling Shot in Limsa Lominsa? What happens if they use that skill on top of the building with the tome merchants in mor dhona?
We THINK we know, but if you're going to allow PVP, you have to make DAMN sure you know. And then you have to test its interactions with other skills.
What happens when players are defeated? what happens when mobs interfere with a fight? What happens with party buffs? These are all things that, again, OPEN PVP has to consider.
The game was not DESIGNED with this in mind. There are areas within the game that were not DESIGNED for combat. This is why there are certain areas where combat just doesn't happen, and when it does, they make use of instancing.
Which is probably what PVP tournaments would entail.

Frontlines is popular because you can succeed without actually being good at PVP, which makes it attractive for people just looking for fun. If it's more popular, they develop for it. Plain and simple. And the queues are STILL an hour long. Why devote resources to something that is just going to be complained about and no one will actually do?
1v1 PVP is kinda like that. The game is NOT balanced for 1v1 pvp. And it probably never will be.

And complaining about PVP on the PVP forum? Sure yeah that happens. Of course it happens. But you can generally tell the popularity of a problem by how much it shows up OUTSIDE its intended forum. It's a litmus test. PVP may have problems not mentioned on GE, but the volume of its presence of GE compared to, say, the MSQs, steps of faith, or Atma droprates should be indicative of its relative popularity.

The option to IGNORE all duel invites would be present

Once again you need to address this point:
How do you ignore people around you dueling?

[AzraelX]

Once again you need to address this point:
How do you ignore people around you dueling?[/QUOTE]


When you duel the two fighters are only able to target each other within the dueling space- in dCUO if player leaves the dueling space ..the duel ends and the other person wins. Players can watch but won't get hit in the cross fire. What they could do is only able duel in open zones where we combat npc not like uldah central- u know the places we can cant use a mount.

would it be cool to even have 2v2 - player+ chocobo battles.

I want final fantasy to be the best b/c i think its the best..the music alone is amazing!

[Nalien]

I'm sure they were planning PVP, but let me tell you something...if it's not in the game at launch then it is not a high priority for the dev team. Housing wasn't there either, and look at the complaints there.

Complaints which are unjustified? I'd say they're pretty justified regardless of how low they might be on the developers priority list, although I find your notion of "Not in launch = not a priority" to be utterly absurd. For a single player game, sure. For a MMO which is going to receive updates for years to come? No. Not even close. Content that wasn't in at launch wasn't a priority for launch. Wolves Den was a priority for 2.1, Frontlines was a priority for 2.3. Slaughter was a priority for whatever update that was, and whatever the new mode is called is a priority for 3.0. The fact that PvP, like Housing, has its own team to work on it alongside other content means it is a continuing priority.

It's point capture, and you're given so many tools that are different from normal gameplay it's almost like driving a tank or car when you normally walk. I really don't understand what they mean by "traditional PVP" but let's take a look at that shall we?

Frontlines isn't the only PvP in this game, you know... I really do dread to think how the common player is going to react to 3.0 if the handful of PvP skills confuse them, none of the PvP ones are even used in combos and their effects are very clear (this removes debuffs, this heals you, this is defensive) but that is an entirely different debate... Still, if the new PvP skills are like driving a tank to some players... That is a new low for this games playerbase...

To make duels, they would have to have the ability to summon up those skills in the open world, OR forego them entirely. This requires time and effort, and testing. What happens if a player uses Repelling Shot in Limsa Lominsa? What happens if they use that skill on top of the building with the tome merchants in mor dhona?

Or they could just limit where we can Duel, like has been suggested numerous times, along side just throwing it in the Wolves Den instance; Making a 1v1 mode for that wouldn't be a massive undertaking in the slightest. Can already use the PvP skills at Wolves Den Pier anyway, why not just add a bit more to that map (again, they're making an entire new map for Frontlines so it's not like they couldn't have) and make that the designated Duel area? A Duel area doesn't even need to be significantly complex, it would be a very easy area to design compared to what we've seen of the new Frontlines map (which looks great even if I have my doubts about the mode itself).

If it's more popular, they develop for it. Plain and simple. And the queues are STILL an hour long. Why devote resources to something that is just going to be complained about and no one will actually do?
1v1 PVP is kinda like that. The game is NOT balanced for 1v1 pvp. And it probably never will be.

The issue isn't about popularity. It's about access. Go back a few posts and read my ridiculous rant, the issue with PvP is that people cannot get into it due to the queues, which in turn makes the queues worse, which in turn is not helped by splitting players across multiple different queues (Wolves Den, Secure, Slaughter, etc.). By not addressing this simple issue they are effectively damning every piece of PvP content they release. Wolves Den was popular, then that little negative feedback loop kicked in and it became very time consuming just to get in. The exact same thing happened to Secure, and Slaughter. There are other issues, sure, but this is the main one.

[kyuven]

Frontlines isn't the only PvP in this game, you know... I really do dread to think how the common player is going to react to 3.0 if the handful of PvP skills confuse them, none of the PvP ones are even used in combos and their effects are very clear (this removes debuffs, this heals you, this is defensive) but that is an entirely different debate... Still, if the new PvP skills are like driving a tank to some players... That is a new low for this games playerbase...

The PVP skills are different enough that you need to relearn your class.This takes time and effort that many players don't want to go through because they just spent 50 levels doing that. Moreover they're not given any situation where they can just practice.

Or they could just limit where we can Duel, like has been suggested numerous times, along side just throwing it in the Wolves Den instance; Making a 1v1 mode for that wouldn't be a massive undertaking in the slightest. Can already use the PvP skills at Wolves Den Pier anyway, why not just add a bit more to that map (again, they're making an entire new map for Frontlines so it's not like they couldn't have) and make that the designated Duel area? A Duel area doesn't even need to be significantly complex, it would be a very easy area to design compared to what we've seen of the new Frontlines map (which looks great even if I have my doubts about the mode itself).

Again you're missing the point, for the same point, twice in a row. The OP wants OPEN PVP DUELS
While yes, restricting where on the maps they could take place could be a thing, I get the sense that's not what the OP wants. Moreover, you would need to set up a separate system for assigning the duels, to ensure it's not just an open PVP arena. With that amount of work, yes adding it to the Wolves Den would be the easiest and AGAIN I agree with this, it wouldn't be a terrible idea to add it to the Wolves Den. Aside from the complete lack of balance between the classes.

The issue isn't about popularity. It's about access. Go back a few posts and read my ridiculous rant, the issue with PvP is that people cannot get into it due to the queues, which in turn makes the queues worse, which in turn is not helped by splitting players across multiple different queues (Wolves Den, Secure, Slaughter, etc.). By not addressing this simple issue they are effectively damning every piece of PvP content they release. Wolves Den was popular, then that little negative feedback loop kicked in and it became very time consuming just to get in. The exact same thing happened to Secure, and Slaughter. There are other issues, sure, but this is the main one.

Um, yes, it IS about popularity. People don't queue for PVP because it's unpopular and the queues are long.
If your access to something is based around people wanting to do it, and no one wants to do it, you're not going to be able to access it. And all the pretty little changes in the world aren't going to affect it one way or another.
This isn't a PVP game, therefore PVP queues will always be long. The only possible exception WOULD be duels, but those would be so skewed towards certain classes you'd run into ANOTHER problem.

And to all the people who complain that duels would be "noisy", are you kidding me?

Nope, not at all.

When you duel the two fighters are only able to target each other within the dueling space- in dCUO if player leaves the dueling space ..the duel ends and the other person wins. Players can watch but won't get hit in the cross fire. What they could do is only able duel in open zones where we combat npc not like uldah central- u know the places we can cant use a mount.

would it be cool to even have 2v2 - player+ chocobo battles.

I want final fantasy to be the best b/c i think its the best..the music alone is amazing!

OK, once again. People are annoyed when actions take place near them when they're rather NOT have those actions take place.
Chat spam? You can ignore via blacklist, big deal move one.
BATTLE spam? You have to manually adjust settings, and no one should have to manually adjust settings just because two guys want to pretend to duke it out just to be annoying in a populated area.
This is a legitimate issue, just as legitimate as the lack of "PVP awareness"
Many people, ESPECIALLY in games like this, don't want to be disturbed in certain areas.

One of you cites the music. How can you hear the music when players are spamming attacks right next to you?
Why do they get to be allowed to do this, rather than just getting 1v1 in Wolves' Den?

Does anybody have a real reason to not introduce dueling to the game? A reason that's not as comical as the problem of balancing 1v1 combat, which almost no MMORPG has successfully done, or the fear of confrontation?

No problems with 1v1...just not OPEN 1v1.
1v1 Wolves Den: Good idea
1v1 /duel in the open world: Bad idea

Oh, and as someone pointed out to me: Lag is a thing. Another reason to not allow them in the open world.

[kpxmanifesto]

No problems with 1v1...just not OPEN 1v1.
1v1 Wolves Den: Good idea
1v1 /duel in the open world: Bad idea

That reason is strange to me. Why would dueling that's limited to the zones outside of a major city be a bother to you?

[kyuven]

That reason is strange to me. Why would dueling that's limited to the zones outside of a major city be a bother to you?

In that case it'd be impractical, if you have to go out of your way just for a duel.
In addition, what consitutes "outside a city"? Is it outside a sanctuary? If so, that would make dueling more dangerous than it should be. Would it be like triple triad?
In that case, why not just make it exclusive to the Wolves' Den? That's the PVP area, those are the PVP instances. Use them. Don't clutter up the rest of the world with something that would be better off left there.

[Nalien]

The PVP skills are different enough that you need to relearn your class.This takes time and effort that many players don't want to go through because they just spent 50 levels doing that. Moreover they're not given any situation where they can just practice.

The PvP skills do not result in you having to relearn your Job... They all have very clear uses, none of them are remotely complex. Any relearning is due to PvP being drastically different, must more fast paced and not 100% scripted. That is what people find hard to learn, not that the skills are hard to grasp. If anyone is looking at Attunement and going "How do I use this?", quit right now.

Also, no where to practice? You can use PvP skills in Wolves Den Pier on the dummies, but ignore that, because testing a rotation in PvP is fairly redundant in the sense people would practice current rotations (can practice a burst but I doubt newer players would know to do that). If only people were asking for some form of sparring system for PvP where they can get real practice at PvP, without the long queue times, something they can do in a couple of minutes...

This isn't a PVP game, therefore PVP queues will always be long.

Odd, I remember a time when I could have back to back Frontlines matches, churning out dozens of i70 desynths from the Wolf Marks a day. It's almost as if queues used to be fine... It's almost as if PvP used to be quite popular...

Seriously, just stop. You don't seem to know what you're talking about. Have you even done any PvP in this game? I know it might be hard for you to believe, but there was a time when some of us could get into matches very frequently. Many of us would like to again, but we don't because waiting for over 30 minutes isn't appealing. The issue, as I have repeatably said, is that PvP queues suffer from a negative feedback loop; People drop out of queues, queues become worse, people can't be asked to wait that long, more people drop out of queues. Rinse and repeat. That is the biggest issue PvP suffers from in this game. New maps and modes become popular at launch, but they still end up suffering from this exact issue. SE can either address this issue, or continue pumping out more modes that will be popular for a while and again need replacing. One of those options is much more resource intensive than the other, guess which. Add to that the fact that more modes dilutes the number of players in the queues, making queues even worse.

PvP is currently unpopular due to the queues. The queues are a result of negative feedback. That is the state of affairs, please stop spouting nonsense like "queues will always be long" when anyone who regularly used to PvP knows for a fact that that is simply not the case. People stopped queuing because they had other things to do. When we feel like coming back the queues are longer due to that drop off. Because the queues are longer people stop queuing, making matters worse. That is a fact. It is not a fact that there is nothing SE can do about that. They can, they're just opting to turn PvP into a themepark instead by adding new modes every other update instead. They actually have some of what I've suggested planned, it's just constantly being pushed back in favour of new Frontlines modes. They keep making the same mistake instead of fixing this issue.