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  1. #21
    Player
    RegentP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Grandia
    Posts
    325
    Character
    Roy Fokker
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Lancer Lv 60
    its good, but try thinking more out side the box, we have dark knight coming and its going to be some wha of a spell blade user. beside if all Tank class use swords when do they make other sword user
    (2)

    http://www.twitch.tv/mogul1x

  2. 05-07-2015 12:50 AM
    Reason
    eh

  3. #22
    Player
    Musashidon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    1,798
    Character
    Blackmage Vivi
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Maero View Post
    They had added Ninja so pretty much was the reason Sam was not added
    actually it was a choice between drk or sam and drk won.
    (2)

  4. #23
    Player JayCommon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    963
    Character
    Indaki Sativa
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 60
    I won't speculate upon why this job won't ever get implemented as a tank because reasons...but rather I will answer your question in OP about what I think.

    I like some of the concepts you have drawn up with your skills, especially counter attacking. However, I think in order to make a real assessment I would need to know exactly how much damage a counter-attack is supposed to mitigate. You do a good job at describing the % chance you have to actually land a counter with all of your skills, but the description in Counter skill says "Counter reduced damage taken and inflicts damage on target."

    How much is the reduction? Is it similar to parry, where it can be in the 20-30% range? Is it more or less? Is the damage output from the counter exactly equal to the damage mitigated? Which of these moves generate more enmity than the other moves? I'm going to base my assumptions off of a "parry-esque" mitigation system and a (edit: sorry not 1-1 I explained that wrong after re-reading. I meant 1-.xx based on your parry rating i.e. 26% damage reduction meaning dealing out 26% of that as your own damage) ratio of damage mitigated = damage output, primarily because of the skill Tachi: Koki which allows for a 50% damage output. I am also going to assume that Tachi: Shoha is like the "Butcher's Block/Rage of Halone" for a Samurai.

    I have a large problem with a few of the CD timers. This Job as described sounds much too bad-ass if played the way it is described. Let's assume you have a level 50 Samurai who has a base 40% chance to counter after getting Untouchable at level 48 (no tank job gets anything close to this in the game currently without some type of cooldown helping it). Tachi: Koki really seems like it should not be on a global cooldown timer and should have something more along the lines of a 60-90 sec timer. I am OK with it being the ending of a combo, but not being able to spam that combo at will. Hagakure seems like 20sec timer is too short.

    Hypothetically, what I see is, I would open with Tachi: Goten (even on a single boss) and then Zanshin/Hagakure (these are off-GCD right? and you can couple them right?) my first Tachi: Shoha (which doubles+"increases" what already sounds like a whole boatload of enmity from a double attack move even with the 6sec delay between attacks.) You get to follow that with a huge 320 potency combo finisher, but depending on just how much enmity Shoha is intended to give it shouldn't even matter any more that Tachi: Ageha doesn't generate further enmity. If you are geared, and the enmity generation works similar to Rage of Halone or Butcher's Block, catching double enmity off Shoha would make it impossible for a DPS to pull off you during the delay+attack that gains no enmity.

    After the opener it looks like you could literally just spam the Tachi: Enpi > Tachi: Kagero > Tachi: Koki combo forever, since the first two moves in that combo gain enmity also. And every 20 seconds (by your CD timers) you could double the enmity of Kagero, and that makes it seem like you would never be in danger of losing hate unless there was another tank to Provoke. It just doesn't seem risky enough to me to have a guaranteed counter for every 3rd attack with no repercussions. Coupled with the fact that at level 36 the Samurai can parry magical attacks....

    I know in a raid setting a large portion of damage going out to the raid is magical, however Tanks eat a lot of physical damage. If you could 100% counter an auto-attack or a cleave (think Resonance in turn 11; huge damage = potential for high mitigation when percentage-based) every 3rd move in your combo it just sounds way to OP, unless I'm not grasping some inherent meaning you may or may not have implied into your skill set descriptions.

    This is without looking at Konzen-ittai, which basically gives you either a 320 potency attack, or an instant-counter if you are out of combo every 30 seconds. And if I'm interpreting the traits correctly, at level 32 a Ronin will have 1500TP? And the ability to freely use their MP as TP if they happen to run out of that enormous pool?? I know you have assigned TP costs to things like Seigan, which sounds like it could be a traditional Cooldown, but the Cooldown timer on it shouldn't be shorter than the length the skill is active. This could be used with 100% uptime in most fights, and only would cause very minimal management issues in raids with being able to swap TP/MP.


    I like the way you have conceptualized the class/job and it sounds extremely fun to play. However I can see some glaring balancing issues in what I described, and I would love for you to clarify or tell me that I'm wrong about some of this if I am interpreting incorrectly.
    (2)
    Last edited by JayCommon; 05-07-2015 at 03:16 AM.

  5. #24
    Player
    Zensho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Pearl Lane
    Posts
    180
    Character
    Zenmetsu Shogun
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 90
    I want to be able to make skill chains by my lonesome, and then meditate.
    (1)

  6. #25
    Player
    Yukiba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    205
    Character
    E'rock Lledo
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Lancer Lv 70
    Samurai should use dual Great Katanas!



    (2)
    Last edited by Yukiba; 05-07-2015 at 09:09 PM.

  7. #26
    Player
    OMEGA_HACK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    1,260
    Character
    Altrage A'uli
    World
    Zalera
    Main Class
    Lancer Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by RegentP View Post
    its good, but try thinking more out side the box, we have dark knight coming and its going to be some wha of a spell blade user. beside if all Tank class use swords when do they make other sword user
    I thought a completely new idea of a counter and parry tank to be pretty original, currently nothing can counter, in the sense that damage is returned to the monster. Parry does not do this, it merely acts as a way to reduce damage. O.o

    Quote Originally Posted by JayCommon View Post
    snip
    Counter's damage reduced would be akin to that of parry's reduced damage, so it would vary on percent countered but probably average around 25-30% of the damage reduced, like parry, but can reach upwards of 70% (like parry can), and as low as 5%. Counter is separate from parry but both cannot proc at the same time (unlike Parry and Block from Sword/Shield which can). The attack returned would be something like your auto-attack damage + 10% of your main offensive stat. So if you have 600 main stat it would be [auto-attack damage equation + 60]. So nothing like a weapon skill's damage output but something to inflict a bit more DPS.

    On the note of counter's proc rate, I was on the fence about lowering it. Maybe I should? When I was talking to my fellow 'theory crafters' this was actually brought up and if actualized SE would have to look into this in practice.

    It is 100% chance to reduce the damage taken on counter proc to 50%. So if you were going to get cleaved for 5k you would only take 2.5k, and your rebuttal attack would deal [auto-attack damage equation + 10% of main stat]

    Hagakure would work kinda like a Flash or Overpower (which are just GCD abilities); I changed up Shoha a bit, now if you combo it, the effect grants enmity to the 1st hit, so both hits would increase enmity. Which I think balances this ability a bit more (Hagakure would only affect the 1st hit of Shoha not the second in terms of the enmity spike)

    The idea for Seigan and Hasso was to create a constant TP drain on the job if you wanted to keep them up at all times. I tweaked the TP values for their weapon skills to provide more of a drain. Konzen-ittai would probably need to be increased to 50-60s CD. But I would think SAM to have an MP pool similar to WAR i120 (700-800MP) and an HP pool slightly more than PLD i120 (8500-9000HP)

    Things I would like to note, unlike the other tanking roles, SAM has no way of healing itself, it would have to rely on any cross-class abilities to give it healing power. It also only primarily deals single target damage. (Goten only creates enmity in the cone, not dmg+enm in the cone)

    A viable rotation for this tanking role would be (Main Tank @50)

    Counter-Stance → Seigan (-90TP) → Tachi: Goten (-70TP) → Hagakure → Tachi: Shoha (-160TP) → Zanshin (-80TP) → Tachi: Ageha (90TP) → Tachi: Enpi (-60TP) → Tach: Kogeru (-70TP) → Sekkanoki → Tachi: Koki (-0MP) → Hamanoha (-80TP)
    Then sprinkle Third Eye, Kozen, Yaegasumi, and Indignation when applicable. That rotation uses 700TP (with Sekkanoki) or 780TP (without Sekkanoki which would be roughly ever other rotation), you would regain 360TP naturally (60TP a tick) so after one rotation you would be from 1500TP to 1160TP and by the 2nd rotation 830TP, 3rd rotation 660TP, 4th rotation 350TP, 5th rotation 0TP (6th and 7th rotations under MEDITATE; allows for roughly two TP free rotations meaning you would recover 720TP in that time frame), 8th rotation 300TP, 9th rotation 280TP (w/ Invigorate), 10th rotation negative TP.

    Now of course that is if you are powering through all your abilities all the time, 1) you won't need to use them all the time and 2) you also will have Save TP [trait] that has a chance to give you back your TP when you use it (30% chance @lv50) so out of 10 rotations that is 135 abilities. Statistically speaking that means roughly 40 of them should give you back your TP, allowing you to make it to your 12th rotation and being able to use meditate again.
    (1)

  8. #27
    Player
    EdwinLi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    4,887
    Character
    Edwin Li
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 100
    If people want SAM to be a tank so badly then provide a alternative to a Sword focus user DPS Job because right now FF14 has this imaginary rule saying " All sword users must be Tank Jobs".
    (2)

  9. #28
    Player
    abzoluut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    798
    Character
    Abzoluut Abzoluut
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Chihaya View Post
    Pretty sure Yoshida has mentioned before that Samurai would be more fitting in the role of a DPS rather than tank
    Can you provide us with a link to this fact?

    To my knowlegde, SAM was a serious option for HW (as a tank). They went with DRK because it would fit the scene more and because NIN was the last job to be released. SAM would make it too "eastern focused".

    Would love to read the info you gave. Hope it's not that Famitasu interview where Yoshi-P mentioned SAM would fit as a DPS too.
    (2)

  10. #29
    Player
    VargasVermillion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    851
    Character
    Val Vermillion
    World
    Tonberry
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 80
    Technically DRK should of been a dps and SAM a tank but I'm happy with them switching either way (excited for DRK). We do have too many slashing tanks anyway, I think a spear tank (templar) would be cool. otherwise maybe a hammer or a pet based tank? PUP maybe?
    (1)

  11. #30
    Player
    Duelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    3,965
    Character
    Duelle Urelle
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Chihaya View Post
    Pretty sure Yoshida has mentioned before that Samurai would be more fitting in the role of a DPS rather than tank
    Nothing wrong with disagreeing with him on that one. Firstly because we don't have many jobs that can can naturally be pushed into the tank role (the whole thing with DRK easily showed this). Secondly, a guy in lamellar armor (which is what samurai wore) not taking hits is just silly. Sure, lamellar armor can't take the same type of hits as well as plate armor can, but it wouldn't be unreasonable for SAM to have a mitigation mechanic to still bring them up to par with WAR and PLD.

    I could be convinced to accept SAM as a DPS, but they'd have to pretty much look like this instead of this.
    (3)
    * The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret, and people think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more, not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells and jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line like good little casters.
    * Design ideas:
    Red Mage - COMPLETE (https://tinyurl.com/y6tsbnjh), Chemist - Second Pass (https://tinyurl.com/ssuog88), Thief - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/vdjpkoa), Rune Fencer - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/y3fomdp2)

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