[Suggestion] SAMURAI

[silentwindfr]

Yoshida himself have said that for him Samurai is more a Damage Dealer... for the armor? a chain armor like the dragoon.
like i have said before, no point to have 2 jobs doing the same role with almost the same weapon....

we have still all the blunt weapon and a percing weapon that aren't used by the tank. a blunt weapon will create a bit of synergy with the monk.... finally, a tank based on the parry is nice... but outside this? i means what will be the main particularity of the samurai? skillchain (like a lot have ask, me inclued)? that more dps than tank.... and a reactive tank based only on parry will be bad, because spell can't be parry.

soo far the particularity of the three tank:
- paladin, high resistance & a lot of CD
- warrior, high hp pool & high generation of threat.

we don't know yet for the dark knight but probably something around the magic. the samurai as tank will bring nothing new, the parry itself is not a particularity important enough, especially since the warrior and the dark knight rely on it too.

See, the main problem with SAM being a DPS now, is that it means if/when it gets added, as a DPS it's going to be wearing this armor:

Instead of this armor:

The former is the DRG dps armor of a new set in Heavensward, the latter is the Tank armor of the same set thematically. You tell me which one suits a Samurai better.

Whether Yoshi P feels it should be a DPS doesn't change the fact it was still in the running for a tank before, and is still the strongest candidate for a future tank.

i have a great news for you, until now, the one that decide what will be what is still Yoshi-P. other point interesting at noted, if the samurai come out as dps, he will probably share the same armor than the dragoon. finally, the actual armor of the dragoon are made only for the dragoon... then use them as comparaison of if is adapted for a jobs not even ready to be released.

people really need to stop to add tank that will bring nothing new to the game, indeed Dark Knight did fit more into the story of heavenward, but i feel the real trouble was to make the samurai really unique as tank. and like said this game lack a damage dealer with 2 hand sword when it's a classic into the franchise, then don't hope to much for a samurai tank.

your wish =/= what Yoshi-p see for the game. or we will have get a hunt different, a persona housing different and many stuff very different of what we have get soo far.

[Shippuu]

people really need to stop to add tank that will bring nothing new to the game,

And people who think that Samurai can't offer new unique things to a tank role lack the imagination/creativity to realize they very much can.

As well as if Yoshi-P was the be all end all authority on what got added to the game then SAM would have never been considered for a tank role like it has been stated it was.

[silentwindfr]

And people who think that Samurai can't offer new unique things to a tank role lack the imagination/creativity to realize they very much can.

As well as if Yoshi-P was the be all end all authority on what got added to the game then SAM would have never been considered for a tank role like it has been stated it was.

it's more Samurai skill chain or capacity from the previous game will be more interesting added to a dps role than a tank role.... all the stuff a pure physical jobs can do the warrior can do it. because that the wholepoint... the only small different will be into the samurai be more technical when the warrior is more into brute strenght.... but that don't change the fact of what the class can or cannot do.

but let's do a bit of braimstorming, since you seems to think that creativity can create anything...
- Two hand katana. even if they go with two katana, more ronin, it will not change the type. slash type same as the warrior.
- no magical power involved, same as the warrior.
- only the parry and dodge as defense, same as the warrior.

that the basic point of the jobs... now we can use the focus and the technique... but wait it will not be different of the defiance of the warrior. since for get this sort of focus, you will use skill.
make it skill chain based? why give this to a tank when it's clearly something that can be more interesting as dps.

you are the one that refuse to admit that samurai will bring nothing news and fresh to the tank role. you can try to create anything, but it will fall into what the other three tank do... i will prefer see stuff like blue mage that will create some interesting synergy and possibility than another physical damage jobs... when we already have 2 like this as tank, one with 1 hand weapon + high resistance and the second one 2 hand weapon + high hp pool.

they have think at samurai as tank because it's the only other jobs that can really fit as 2 hand sword user. and that don't change that yoshi-p have said since then that the samurai for him will be more a dps if it's added.

[OMEGA_HACK]

it's more Samurai skill chain or capacity from the previous game will be more interesting added to a dps role than a tank role.... all the stuff a pure physical jobs can do the warrior can do it. because that the wholepoint... the only small different will be into the samurai be more technical when the warrior is more into brute strenght.... but that don't change the fact of what the class can or cannot do.

but let's do a bit of braimstorming, since you seems to think that creativity can create anything...
- Two hand katana. even if they go with two katana, more ronin, it will not change the type. slash type same as the warrior.
- no magical power involved, same as the warrior.
- only the parry and dodge as defense, same as the warrior.

that the basic point of the jobs... now we can use the focus and the technique... but wait it will not be different of the defiance of the warrior. since for get this sort of focus, you will use skill.
make it skill chain based? why give this to a tank when it's clearly something that can be more interesting as dps.

you are the one that refuse to admit that samurai will bring nothing news and fresh to the tank role. you can try to create anything, but it will fall into what the other three tank do... i will prefer see stuff like blue mage that will create some interesting synergy and possibility than another physical damage jobs... when we already have 2 like this as tank, one with 1 hand weapon + high resistance and the second one 2 hand weapon + high hp pool.

they have think at samurai as tank because it's the only other jobs that can really fit as 2 hand sword user. and that don't change that yoshi-p have said since then that the samurai for him will be more a dps if it's added.

Actually Florence, the version of Samurai that I created in the original post DID do something that NO OTHER TANK COULD DO. And that is counter, at the moment, tanks can Block and/or parry. Not counter. Counter means they would offer a third and brand new way to reduce damage while at the same time dealing damage. I made sure that I kept the idea of Samurai being someone who can hold its own, and in my creation I would envision the SAM to have roughly the same MP value as WAR but much less HP than WAR, and a littler more HP (roughly 500 more) than PLD. In turn for not being the best in either of those fields it would be the best in Tank DPS. Now tell me that its like a tank we already have.

I should note I did not include DRK in this as we know NOTHING of its move-set, the only thing we know is that it will be an MP management tank, so my guess is like healer level MP, with around PLD HP values, and uses MP to reduce incoming damage. But again we don't really know, unless you know a secret that none of us know.

[Intaki]

In turn for not being the best in either of those fields it would be the best in Tank DPS.

If your design for a new tank is focused on how effective and fun it is to dps with is that not a sign to just make the class a fully fleshed out dps (rather than a watered down dps with better health and agro generation)?

[mrmelgibson]

Well don't forget that we still have to deal with 3.X era Storyline which may focus on setting the stage for 4.0 just like 2.X era storyline. Leaving open 3.X for the covering of the story with the unification of the Alliance, Ul'dah's recovery, and more foreshadowing of the Garlean Empire's return which can have the event lead to the Battle of Ala Mhigo at the end of 3.X.

This would allow the Battle of Ala Mhigo to serve as the event that opens the gate into 4.0 area (Garlean Empire and Eastern Continent) for 3.X era ending just like how 2.X ending with Steps of Faith and the revealing of the conspiracy leads to the event of 3.0.

You make some very good points. Could end up like this. Guess time will tell.

[Intaki]

If anything is going to prevent SAM from being a tank it's the fact that it would be hugely redundant on a creative level. You would not only have two two-handed sword users in the game, but both of them would occupy the same role. That would look extremely lazy on the part of SE.

I would be much more interested in seeing SE try their hand at a mage tank, and leave SAM to dps where it belongs.

[silentwindfr]

*sighs* the main trouble is not about samurai vs dark knight, but samurai vs warrior.
i will go farer since some people like to avoid the main trouble.

for make a tank into a game viable and balanced you need to have con and pro.
for a two handed weapon tank, you loose the resistance of a shield, then you go either with magical buff or hp pool. strangely we already have the two... for the hp pool you do have the warrior... and the magical one it will be the dark knight (even without know the jobs, yoshi-p have already explain that the jobs will be based on the magic)

other point that seems to be avoid totally, parry don't nullify damage... when you parry you still take damage, make it more dodge based? we already had this talk with the ninja tank thread. if a jobs dodge all, it's overpowered, if it don't dodge enough, it will be underpowered.

samurai tank can't bring anything new to the tank role soo far. exept new mechanic for deal damage.... that are more interesting to develop for a damage dealer.

and i'm talking about the game, not the irl... weapon damage is what count, the animation are only for the eyes... what they do is the important. that why summoner can't really be a pet jobs like some ask, because it will not be different of the black mage... we are talking of game, not irl and that why soo far, samurai will be too similar of the warrior for be a decent choice.


counter can't be used as a particularity... because you can't counter magic in the game, you can't block, parry magic, you can only dodge it. other point, the paladin already use a country skill, even if it's under used it's already in it skill. a reactive tank is nice when you have a huge hp pool and have regen skill... or the jobs will be soo much unbalanced.
because if it's like what you offer, he will have not a lot of life, not a lot of damage reduction... for get.... a country strike that will only work on physical attack. even if you put all the mechanic on the parry.... parry can't reach 100% of chance, and even if it's 100%, parry damage nullification rarely pass the 24-25%.... why take the samurai? i means, the paladin already have a passive -20% damage that can be boosted by the block, parry...

that the whole point... the jobs will bring nothing new and will be a pain to balance even if you put it on parry mostly, even if it's a jobs based on dodge it will be worst...

[Shippuu]

it's more Samurai skill chain or capacity from the previous game will be more interesting added to a dps role than a tank role.... all the stuff a pure physical jobs can do the warrior can do it. because that the wholepoint... the only small different will be into the samurai be more technical when the warrior is more into brute strenght.... but that don't change the fact of what the class can or cannot do.

I'm going to humor your arguments because I'm bored, despite the fact that none of your arguments hold because all of them could be said about Dark Knight as it's role as a DPS and SE has shown they can turn it into a tank. All what a SAM can do a WAR can do as a tank? I can say the exact same thing for SAM dps. That it can't provide anything that a MNK or DRG can't. Get out of here with that senseless logic because with that idea there shouldn't be anything except 1 tank, 1 healer, and 1 dps job.

but let's do a bit of braimstorming, since you seems to think that creativity can create anything...
- Two hand katana. even if they go with two katana, more ronin, it will not change the type. slash type same as the warrior.

There is nothing wrong with with all the tanks being slashing damage. If anything it helps synergize with Warrior's Storm's Path debuff. for a SAM/WAR tank combo for 8man content.

- no magical power involved, same as the warrior.

Some can argue Warrior's Wrath mechanic is a type of magic. Samurai can easily have magical or spiritual aspects added to them if SE wanted, imbuing their weapons with ancestral energy (Warrior's Inner beast is connected to the soulstone and their supposed ancestor's.)

- only the parry and dodge as defense, same as the warrior.

By this logic DRK shouldn't be added either since they have parry and dodging as well as defensive buffs just like Warrior has. (Vengeance, Inner beast, Foresight)

make it skill chain based? why give this to a tank when it's clearly something that can be more interesting as dps.

This isn't FFXI. Even if SAM gets added as DPS it won't have Skillchains. Stop trying to make it FFXI's SAM because it won't be.

you are the one that refuse to admit that samurai will bring nothing news and fresh to the tank role. you can try to create anything, but it will fall into what the other three tank do...

A new tank doesn't necessarily have to change the formula on what it means to be a tank. It can (and likely will) still be a heavy armored meat wall. Besides, there's numerous mechanics they can give the samurai tank, like the OP posted. Or a system that builds stacks every time the samurai parries an attack, these stacks can reduce the damage SAM takes passively, or can be spent for other moves similar to wrath stacks if they wanted. I can think a many, many, many more unique things SAM can offer as a tank.

they have think at samurai as tank because it's the only other jobs that can really fit as 2 hand sword user. and that don't change that yoshi-p have said since then that the samurai for him will be more a dps if it's added.

And you are clinging way too much on the vague comment Yoshi-P said about his thoughts on a DPS samurai. It was not a hard confirmation and was just an opinion that offers little weight in the end. Yoshi-P has said many things with more assurance then that comment that has turned out to be untrue (Like personal housing prices.)

[OMEGA_HACK]

*sighs* the main trouble is not about samurai vs dark knight, but samurai vs warrior.
i will go farer since some people like to avoid the main trouble.

for make a tank into a game viable and balanced you need to have con and pro.
for a two handed weapon tank, you loose the resistance of a shield, then you go either with magical buff or hp pool. strangely we already have the two... for the hp pool you do have the warrior... and the magical one it will be the dark knight (even without know the jobs, yoshi-p have already explain that the jobs will be based on the magic)

other point that seems to be avoid totally, parry don't nullify damage... when you parry you still take damage, make it more dodge based? we already had this talk with the ninja tank thread. if a jobs dodge all, it's overpowered, if it don't dodge enough, it will be underpowered.

samurai tank can't bring anything new to the tank role soo far. exept new mechanic for deal damage.... that are more interesting to develop for a damage dealer.

and i'm talking about the game, not the irl... weapon damage is what count, the animation are only for the eyes... what they do is the important. that why summoner can't really be a pet jobs like some ask, because it will not be different of the black mage... we are talking of game, not irl and that why soo far, samurai will be too similar of the warrior for be a decent choice.

Yes and if you finish reading my post the SAM I have created wont be a HP pool tank it would be a Counter tank. completely different, and completely new in FFXIV you CANNOT counter in XIV you can however parry but parry is not counter, parry doesn't not inflict damage on the enemy. Also Samurai would have an ability that lets them parry/counter MAGICAL attacks. No other tank would be able to do this. NONE.

To play a bit of devil's advocate here though and say okay you are right my SAM is too much like WAR, so lets use your idea of Skill chain DPS SAM (ala: FFXI SAM):

Don't you think you would be stepping on the toes of a bunch of people who play Dragoon? I mean DRG is basically XI's SAM minus Skill Chains, because let's face is Skill Chains were exclusive to XI and their concept was about TEAM PLAY not Samurai solo play, although players broke it later down the road. Also don't you think it would be lazy for SE to introduce two combo heavy twohanded DPS jobs?

parry damage nullification rarely pass the 24-25%

Um what, Keen Flurry alone let's you break that easily and to say it rarely passes 25% is absurd, I've noted it being closer to the 30% mark on average, and for SAM that I've created the counter rate would be around 40% countering. Counter would basically be a parry that deals damage back to the target. You say we need to think outside the box when I believe it is you who either A) has not read my Original Post or B) is not willing to allow your own mind to BE outside the box.